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Post by happtobehere on May 15, 2021 13:22:04 GMT -5
I don't care how "good" a person is... I care about how good a ball player he is. I'll take Barry Bonds all day long and he was a complete jerk... but he was also the greatest ball player of his generation if not of all time.
It's crazy that Rizzo who is such a good guy could be best friends with Bryant who apparently hates the fans, hates the city, hates the organization and screws his teammates over all the time.
Kris Bryant goes #allin for charity
Kris Bryant to shine on Wings of Life Foundation
Kris Bryant host poker tournament for charity
Kris Bryant host golf tournament for charity
What a selfish jerk! Only donating his time and money to charity and not starting a name stake charity like Schwarber and Rizzo...
Just because players choose to work behind the scenes doesn't mean he isn't charitable or a good guy (Jon Lester, Jason Heyward)
I'm not pitting Bryant against Rizzo, all I'm saying that re-signing the best player on the team is the priority.
And for the people who say "wouldn't you rather have two really good players making 18 million per" Tell me the last team that won the World Series with just "really good" players?
Allllllrighty then I guess the 1 star player vs 2 really good players depends. What do their WAR's add up to, for example? I would tend to think that the combination of a 4 war player and a 4 war player is equal to the combinatiom of a 6 war player and a 2 war player. Quick question(s):
Do the Washington Nationals win a World Series title without Strasburg and Scherzer? Dodgers without Kershaw and Betts? Red Sox with Price, Martinez and Sale? The Astros without Verlander and Altuve? Do the Cubs sniff a World Series title without Lester (Jay Hey is arguable)?
When you look at the top two teams in each division right now... how many do not have a player making over 25 million?
Baseball inflation right now is through the freaking roof! People are not wrong about dollars getting out of hand but it's the state we live in.
I'm not of the opinion that the Cubs need to go through a decade long rebuild like the Astros and White Sox did to be a World Series contender again... I do think however you trade Kris Bryant vs. extending him you no longer can consider it a 1-2 year re-tool but a 4-5 year rebuild.
The Cubs have a lot pieces in place and a couple highly regarded prospects nearly ready to make an impact at the ML level.
Alzolay looks like at least a middle of the rotation starter. Hoerner looks like a potential lead off hitter who plays gold glove defense up the middle. Happ has had some really bad luck this year but has hit everything hard and can be considered at least a solid everyday player. Keegan Thompson has looked really good, so has Justin Steele. Is Dillon Maples finally for real? Granted, it's very small sample sizes for our young arms but things look promising.
Now, I'm also not saying that you cannot shop Bryant but anything less than near ML ready franchise player in return is unacceptable and if not you keep him and back the brinks truck up after the trade deadline.
Other than that, I look to trade almost everyone: Rizzo, Baez, Kimbrel, Arrieta, Contreras, Davies, Marsinick, Duffy, Pederson, Chafin, Williams... and with everyone outside of Rizzo, it's a take what you can get type situation, best offer wins. Rizzo I would hold onto unless I get a highly regarded prospect because I think the benefits of keeping him and attaching a QO to him may out weigh the benefits of trading for anything less.
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Post by happtobehere on May 15, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -5
While I don't really blame you for questioning Hoyer's ability to maximize a trade, I don't know if the lack of return for Bryant will really be his fault. Unless you can get two teams to get into a bidding war because they believe Bryant (or any of the impending free agents) is the piece that will put them over the top, I don't see a huge return for any of the players. They might be able to get a diamond in the rough from A-ball, but you probably won't know until 2 or 3 years from now (again, like the Darvish trade). You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater. When I read comments on this board, such as your comment "You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater." it's not lost on me that I'm talking to the some of the SAME people who said I was stupid and "you do not retool in the middle of a championship window" for stating that the Cubs needed to look at trading guys like Zobrist, Rizzo, Quintana, etc two-three years ago because their payroll was getting out of hand and they needed more impact prospects in their farm.
Now I read comments that saying that we should have maximized returns earlier. It makes me realize that I'm no where near as FANatical as most of the people on this board.
I place absolutely zero sentimental value on any player... I don't own a single jersey, autograph or anything by a Cubs player. All I care about is the numbers, not the names attached to the numbers, Contract size, length, stat line, age etc.
When I look at Rizzo, I don't think about his charity, 2016, him signing a team friendly extension... I see a very good defender with very good on base skills but declining RBI and power production who's bat is better suited for a 2 hole (but his base running skills reduce that value) or the 5 hole. I see a 16-17 million dollar for 3 years player because of his leadership and baseball skills.
When the Cubs signed Arrieta, I wanted to sign DeSclanfani because of his age, upside and the fact he was still pounding mid 90's stuff.
One of the problems I've seen with this franchise is that Hoyer and Epstein were fans of their players. They looked at them through sentimental glass which is why I didn't want Hoyer to captain this transition period and I think the Cubs should have absolutely 100% have hired Jeff Luhnow.
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Post by thisbuds4u on May 15, 2021 14:35:18 GMT -5
While I don't really blame you for questioning Hoyer's ability to maximize a trade, I don't know if the lack of return for Bryant will really be his fault. Unless you can get two teams to get into a bidding war because they believe Bryant (or any of the impending free agents) is the piece that will put them over the top, I don't see a huge return for any of the players. They might be able to get a diamond in the rough from A-ball, but you probably won't know until 2 or 3 years from now (again, like the Darvish trade). You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater. When I read comments on this board, such as your comment "You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater." it's not lost on me that I'm talking to the some of the SAME people who said I was stupid and "you do not retool in the middle of a championship window" for stating that the Cubs needed to look at trading guys like Zobrist, Rizzo, Quintana, etc two-three years ago because their payroll was getting out of hand and they needed more impact prospects in their farm.
Now I read comments that saying that we should have maximized returns earlier. It makes me realize that I'm no where near as FANatical as most of the people on this board.
I place absolutely zero sentimental value on any player... I don't own a single jersey, autograph or anything by a Cubs player. All I care about is the numbers, not the names attached to the numbers, Contract size, length, stat line, age etc.
When I look at Rizzo, I don't think about his charity, 2016, him signing a team friendly extension... I see a very good defender with very good on base skills but declining RBI and power production who's bat is better suited for a 2 hole (but his base running skills reduce that value) or the 5 hole. I see a 16-17 million dollar for 3 years player because of his leadership and baseball skills.
When the Cubs signed Arrieta, I wanted to sign DeSclanfani because of his age, upside and the fact he was still pounding mid 90's stuff.
One of the problems I've seen with this franchise is that Hoyer and Epstein were fans of their players. They looked at them through sentimental glass which is why I didn't want Hoyer to captain this transition period and I think the Cubs should have absolutely 100% have hired Jeff Luhnow.
I wouldn't say Epstein and Hoyer were fans of their players. If they were, they wouldn't be pending free agents. I'm more inclined to believe their egos effected there decisions. Instead of realizing their mistakes, they compounded them, much like the Bears GM Ryan Pace did when he drafted Trubisky.
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Post by Cubtastic on May 15, 2021 14:48:17 GMT -5
Hate towards Bryant or criticism towards him is insignificant, the Cubs have devolved into an average baseball team who desperately needs a rebuild and Bryant is one of those pieces that they will trade. Do you trust Hoyer to get maximum value in a trade? No but what are the Cubs options, sign he, Rizzo and Javy to huge money deals? That would be foolish, they'd still be medicore. The window has closed, it just is what it is. I'm sure the haul for KB will be good, fingers crossed.
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Post by cfin on May 15, 2021 17:28:57 GMT -5
To really keep a championship window open, you have to be able to extend players to team friendly deals or have the balls to trade them, maximizing return, which in turn might light a fire under some players to accept a team friendly extension.
When a player has 2 years of arbitration remaining before free agency, that's probably the ideal time to trade them and get the most out of them (if they're not going to sign an extension). Now, Bryant had the grievance that took forever to get a resolution with so that hurt. The pandemic last year and this year, it's hurting the teams financially (hurting could be in the eye of the beholder: they're only making $150 million this year instead of $200 million, for us peons that's hardly a reason to complain, but for the team it's still a financial hit). I'm somewhat afraid we're going to regret not trading Contreras this past offseason and maximizing his return, but the pandemic kind of threw a wrench in that as well.
But if Bryant had been traded a couple of years ago and the Cubs could have signed a stop-gap (Josh Donaldson?) while waiting for the prospects from the Bryant return to mature, we might still be looking at a championship window, because conceivably there would be cheap, younger talent at the doorstep waiting to take over.
But Epstein and Hoyer didn't do that.
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Post by irishcubfan on May 15, 2021 19:39:26 GMT -5
What rarely gets mentioned is the Cubs front office failed to provide quality supplemental players to surround the core during the window. Sure the core did not progress as hoped, but when a Descalso is your big free agent addition than something is wrong.
KB had good years with the exception of last year's sprint. Rizzo as well. Baez probably improved the most from 16-20.
It is going to be a long rebuild.
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Post by Mike on May 16, 2021 0:25:51 GMT -5
How we dealt with Montero was shameful. Signing Jay to replace Dex was bleh. Martin and Avila were unnecessary.
When you're relying on a good chunk of talent that can't be consistent in the majors, you put yourself in that situation.
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Post by lu13cubbie on May 16, 2021 7:49:10 GMT -5
What rarely gets mentioned is the Cubs front office failed to provide quality supplemental players to surround the core during the window. Sure the core did not progress as hoped, but when a Descalso is your big free agent addition than something is wrong. KB had good years with the exception of last year's sprint. Rizzo as well. Baez probably improved the most from 16-20. It is going to be a long rebuild. What supplemental players should you need with the core the Cubs had/have ? Descalso, ( whom I didn't like ) should of been it, he just fell on his face, sticking it to the Cubs who didn't have the money to cut him and sign some one else. They also had/have Bote Kipnis worked out well, it was to bad it was a shortened covid year tho. IMO, the re-tool, ( it's not going to be a rebuild ), has begun. Alzolay, Steele, Thompson, Hoerner, are showing potential to be part of the future. The Cubs have money to spend next year to re-sign or sign quality players. My glass is over half full and rising
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Post by threeandone on May 16, 2021 13:13:09 GMT -5
While I don't really blame you for questioning Hoyer's ability to maximize a trade, I don't know if the lack of return for Bryant will really be his fault. Unless you can get two teams to get into a bidding war because they believe Bryant (or any of the impending free agents) is the piece that will put them over the top, I don't see a huge return for any of the players. They might be able to get a diamond in the rough from A-ball, but you probably won't know until 2 or 3 years from now (again, like the Darvish trade). You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater. When I read comments on this board, such as your comment "You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater." it's not lost on me that I'm talking to the some of the SAME people who said I was stupid and "you do not retool in the middle of a championship window" for stating that the Cubs needed to look at trading guys like Zobrist, Rizzo, Quintana, etc two-three years ago because their payroll was getting out of hand and they needed more impact prospects in their farm.
Now I read comments that saying that we should have maximized returns earlier. It makes me realize that I'm no where near as FANatical as most of the people on this board.
I place absolutely zero sentimental value on any player... I don't own a single jersey, autograph or anything by a Cubs player. All I care about is the numbers, not the names attached to the numbers, Contract size, length, stat line, age etc.
When I look at Rizzo, I don't think about his charity, 2016, him signing a team friendly extension... I see a very good defender with very good on base skills but declining RBI and power production who's bat is better suited for a 2 hole (but his base running skills reduce that value) or the 5 hole. I see a 16-17 million dollar for 3 years player because of his leadership and baseball skills.
When the Cubs signed Arrieta, I wanted to sign DeSclanfani because of his age, upside and the fact he was still pounding mid 90's stuff.
One of the problems I've seen with this franchise is that Hoyer and Epstein were fans of their players. They looked at them through sentimental glass which is why I didn't want Hoyer to captain this transition period and I think the Cubs should have absolutely 100% have hired Jeff Luhnow.
It is kind of odd that you are "talking to some of the same people who said (you) were stupid" 2 -3 years ago when you just joined this board this past week. Cool trick
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Post by happtobehere on May 16, 2021 13:35:57 GMT -5
When I read comments on this board, such as your comment "You can blame Hoyer (and Epstein) for failing to make any moves since 2016 to fix this team, when the return for some of these players probably would have been greater." it's not lost on me that I'm talking to the some of the SAME people who said I was stupid and "you do not retool in the middle of a championship window" for stating that the Cubs needed to look at trading guys like Zobrist, Rizzo, Quintana, etc two-three years ago because their payroll was getting out of hand and they needed more impact prospects in their farm.
Now I read comments that saying that we should have maximized returns earlier. It makes me realize that I'm no where near as FANatical as most of the people on this board.
I place absolutely zero sentimental value on any player... I don't own a single jersey, autograph or anything by a Cubs player. All I care about is the numbers, not the names attached to the numbers, Contract size, length, stat line, age etc.
When I look at Rizzo, I don't think about his charity, 2016, him signing a team friendly extension... I see a very good defender with very good on base skills but declining RBI and power production who's bat is better suited for a 2 hole (but his base running skills reduce that value) or the 5 hole. I see a 16-17 million dollar for 3 years player because of his leadership and baseball skills.
When the Cubs signed Arrieta, I wanted to sign DeSclanfani because of his age, upside and the fact he was still pounding mid 90's stuff.
One of the problems I've seen with this franchise is that Hoyer and Epstein were fans of their players. They looked at them through sentimental glass which is why I didn't want Hoyer to captain this transition period and I think the Cubs should have absolutely 100% have hired Jeff Luhnow.
It is kind of odd that you are "talking to some of the same people who said (you) were stupid" 2 -3 years ago when you just joined this board this past week. Cool trick I was on this board previously under a different user name
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Post by happtobehere on May 30, 2021 13:07:53 GMT -5
I think we all might be overvaluing Bryant to an extent. It really would not shock me if the return is Darvish-like.
The team that trades for him is only guaranteed 4 or 5 months of his service. I don't think they are going to give up a ton for that. Injuries might change that. If a contending team suffers a season-ending injury to a major offensive piece, they may be more willing to give up more.
This is why trading Bryant in one of the past offseason was probably the time to maximize the return.
I don't know what the draft prospects look like in 2022. The question becomes whether the return for Bryant is better than a potential compensatory pick would be in 2022. Generally, I'm almost always in preference of A-ball players over draft picks. A-ball players have at least been exposed to professional baseball and a scout sheet can be established for them. The draft is almost always a gamble.
The trading piece that probably has the most value is going to be Kimbrel if he continues to perform like he has. Contending teams are ALWAYS looking for bullpen pieces, if for no other reason than to keep those bullpen pieces from going to other contenders. Kimbrel probably won't net a top-top prospect, but should net a significant piece.
I'm more concerned with Hoyer's ability to evaluate talent. Aside from Castellanos, it's been a while since the Cubs have made a trade that has had an impact on this team. Cole Hamels?
Jesse Chavez?
Brad Wieck?
Rowan Wick?
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Post by thisbuds4u on May 31, 2021 3:14:16 GMT -5
I'm more concerned with Hoyer's ability to evaluate talent. Aside from Castellanos, it's been a while since the Cubs have made a trade that has had an impact on this team. Cole Hamels?
Jesse Chavez?
Brad Wieck?
Rowan Wick?
I think you just proved my point.
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Post by happtobehere on May 31, 2021 8:53:59 GMT -5
Cole Hamels?
Jesse Chavez?
Brad Wieck?
Rowan Wick?
I think you just proved my point. Really? That proves your point? Hamels was amazing the second he put on Cubbie blue, as were Chavez and Wick. Wick is a 7/8/9th inning guy, at least he was prior to his injury.
And the Cubs have not exactly given up the farm to get any of those guys. My only real complaint about the trades the Cubs have made (since breaking the bank on Quintana) was giving up anything of value for Martinez.
As far as youth is concerned, I'm one of the few who are really excited about the package the Cubs got for Darvish (especially Perciado and Mena). As much as I hate listening to A-Rod on the TV, he has some good insight, during the Cubs/Cardinals game, he mentioned that teams used to draft hitters and teach them power (mentioning guys like Jeter) and I think that is what the Cubs got in the Darvish deal. Perciado and Mena (to a lesser extent Santana) are guys who use the whole field, good contact rates, good (to great) speed who can develop into having a bit more power.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jun 2, 2021 21:59:31 GMT -5
At this point, if I’m KB I’m saying no to the Cubs.
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Post by bryzzobrist on Jun 4, 2021 13:29:10 GMT -5
Yeah, but are we sure he's worth 19m this year? (lol)
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Post by fine09 on Jun 4, 2021 13:52:10 GMT -5
At this point, if I’m KB I’m saying no to the Cubs. With the pending CBA expiring there could be quite a few players that would really like to get under a long term contract so you may be right especially if he doesn't like it here, but I think he might like it here. Just guessing though. He does need to get paid though & he picked a great time to get hot at the plate. We just need him to stay healthy.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 4, 2021 14:02:48 GMT -5
Yeah, but are we sure he's worth 19m this year? (lol) Ha! Well his bWAR is 2.1 with 68% of the season to go so "So far" he has given the Cubs almost 17 mil. worth of production. That works out to roughly 36 mil. of value by regular seasons end. Sign me up for an 8 year 240 mil deal with a 10 mil signing bonus. Not quite "Arenado money" but we're not nearly as stupid as the Rockies..
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Post by bryzzobrist on Jun 4, 2021 14:03:29 GMT -5
At this point, if I’m KB I’m saying no to the Cubs. With the pending CBA expiring there could be quite a few players that would really like to get under a long term contract so you may be right especially if he doesn't like it here, but I think he might like it here. Just guessing though. He does need to get paid though & he picked a great time to get hot at the plate. We just need him to stay healthy. Amazing what a couple months can do for a player in his contract year.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 4, 2021 14:12:25 GMT -5
With the pending CBA expiring there could be quite a few players that would really like to get under a long term contract so you may be right especially if he doesn't like it here, but I think he might like it here. Just guessing though. He does need to get paid though & he picked a great time to get hot at the plate. We just need him to stay healthy. Amazing what a couple months can do for a player in his contract year. Can you imagine if last year was his walk year? Be careful what you wish for Kris because if you would have won that grievance hearing you'd have been looking at a 1 year pillow contract for 2021 or a miniscule 3 year deal somewhere else..
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Post by bryzzobrist on Jun 4, 2021 14:20:43 GMT -5
Amazing what a couple months can do for a player in his contract year. Can you imagine if last year was his walk year? Be careful what you wish for Kris because if you would have won that grievance hearing you'd have been looking at a 1 year pillow contract for 2021 or a miniscule 3 year deal somewhere else.. It's like every time he has a good or bad game, you can add or subtract a million dollars from his next contract. The amount that he's worth is changing drastically based on his most recent performance.
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