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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 8, 2024 11:49:33 GMT -5
I think you're trying to down play how good Bellinger was. I find it very hard to believe that either PCA or Busch post a 134 wRC+ which was 13th best in baseball.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 8, 2024 11:52:36 GMT -5
Agreed. I believe that they have marked PCA, Horton & Busch 3 guys that they have complete faith in as impact MLB players & sadly Bellinger “somewhat” blocks 2 of them which is why they are hesitant to go all in on a long term deal for Cody. I agree that flipping prospects is a great way to build up a team quickly because you sell high on “perceived” value as opposed to if you keep them they must succeed in order for it to work out great. That being said, I am also confident that one of Cassie / Alcantara will also be very good when all is said & done. Thats the thing with Bellinger , does he make them better in 2024 , probably but do you need to /have to spend what it would take to get him when you have Busch, PCA, Caissie, Alcantara around . I mean I would love to have Bellinger, no secret on here about how much I like the guy and want him to be a Cub again and he would no doubt make me feel a LOT better aboutt he Cubs chances in 2024 and if they don't sign him , yeah they might struggle in 2024 if they are counting on a rookie to hold the power load in the middle of the line up. But if Busch is the hitter most think he is and he can play a solid 1B , do they miss not signing Bellinger going forward? If PCA is what most of us expect in CF , do they miss Bellinger going forward? It would all make us feel better if they do sign him because we all feel more comfortable with veterans, but because of what else they have , I could see why they are not caving in to Boras demands and why they do want him back , but more on their terms and then worry about making the others fit. I don't know if I just talked in circles here or not , I'm going fucking crazy with all this non action, speculation, questions of who plays where shit already. "It would all make us feel better if they do sign him because we all feel more comfortable with veterans, but because of what else they have , I could see why they are not caving in to Boras demands and why they do want him back , but more on their terms and then worry about making the others fit." No, it makes us feel better because Bellinger is 28 years old and a very good player and helps the Cubs win ball games. You can talk yourself out of Bellinger all you want, he's a much better player than PCA and Busch, by far. We don't even know what the asking price is.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 8, 2024 11:57:01 GMT -5
Of course, part of wanting a good farm is to be able to use them as assets in trade to fill needs. But you also need to get a vision on a roster balance between young cheap players under multiple years of control and expensive veterans because unless you plan to spend like LA or the Mets , you can't afford a team loaded with high priced veterans. There has to be a blend if you want sustained success and to be able to afford players when you need to. I see that as the Cubs vision , guys like PCA, Horton are definitely looked at as part of the future core who will be cheap for a while and an important part of the team and guys like Shaw, Caissie, Alcantara are too. They haven't exactly been holding tight onto the prospects, traded Herz and Made for Candelario, and just traded Ferris for Busch which shows me if they feel they have a need in one area and maybe a surplus in another they will trade a stud prospect like Ferris. <<but pinpoint the ones you want to develop and the one who are flexible in trade.>> I think they know how that works and do it , they know who they feel is part of the future and who might fizzle out or be more valuable to them in trade , they aren't idiots. "I think they know how that works and do it" No, I don't think they do. When was the last time the Cubs traded a top prospect for a proven player? Eloy? But you're right, they're not idiots, they're only 30 games UNDER .500 since 2021. 30 games under since 2021 ....yeah that's not actually bad for a record when you went into what you term a rebuild , 2 years of sub .500 ball and back to .500 by the third year and now have a 1-5 rated farm from all the rankings. You don't trade many top prospects while you rebuild the farm because ........well ........do I really need to go further? And they weren't trading top prospects in prevuious years because most were making the team and being part of the core. Can't win in some fans eyes, they are dumshits for trading Cease, Eloy, Torres when trying to win and should have kept them but when they don't trade any while rebuilding they are dumbshits then too.
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Post by TheChico on Feb 8, 2024 11:58:44 GMT -5
Kind of like how the Dodgers and Braves role. Right now the Cubs are in not in a position that FO and fans should be worried about prospects being blocked, the Cubs are miles away from facing that problem that any team would love to have. I really hope that becomes an issue, that means things are going very well in Chicago. No but if the future core is being built from within who are now close to major league ready they aren't going to go ape shit crazy filling positions with veterans. Last year we saw them sign stop gap veterans because the prospects were still mostly in A ball , now they are not and most are in AAor AAA so why be signing a lot of veterans now? We all would love a team full of big name all stars because we feel better about the chances they do well over a team full of young players trying to establish themselves, but we also seen how that worked for the Mets, Yankees, Padres etc and how it worked for teams like the Orioles, DBacks etc There also has to be a vision about the payroll well in advance , will they be able to start signing young players to extensions like other teams are , not really if they are already pushing their nose against the luxury tax before the team is a legit year to year contender. Part of the reason the old core did not get any extensions was they were already over the luxury tax at the time it would have been best to offer them and they had no money coming off the books. There is way more to this then hey , this guys a good player lets sign him , you have to weigh cost into some moves , like Contreras for example who they didn't seem to love anyway, but was it going to be worth paying him 18 million a year when you can have both Gomes and Amaya for 6.5 ? I am not saying the Cubs should trade all their prospects and need star players on expensive contracts everywhere that is unrealistic and unsustainable, like you said it is about finding the right balance which is the challenge the FO is kind of facing right now, the potential impact prospects that we have been hyping in the Minor league thread is are very close BUT have a current roster that are a couple strong additions away from being serious contenders too. Right now I just see to many people worried about prospects being potentially being blocked if the Cubs sign certain guys and to me, that should not be a concern at moment to prevent the team to be a serious contender now too.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 8, 2024 12:03:57 GMT -5
I think you're trying to down play how good Bellinger was. I find it very hard to believe that either PCA or Busch post a 134 wRC+ which was 13th best in baseball. I'm not I love Belly and want him back more than anybody on here including you. and I'm one of the few who is not expecting a regression like most are because of his statcast stats bullshit. I don't expect either to be as productive , but put yourself in a baseball and bussiness sense and is he going to be worth the money that is the difference of say 25 million a year to what these guys will be making which will be 720k. To me as a fan, hell yes, he's worth it, it's not my money or my budget I need to balance , but to them , I can see their perspective on it since they cut the checks and need to figure 39 other players into that budget besides him.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 8, 2024 12:06:15 GMT -5
"I don't expect either to be as productive , but put yourself in a baseball and bussiness sense and is he going to be worth the money that is the difference of say 25 million a year to what these guys will be making which will be 720k."
And this thought process right here is the difference between elite teams and middling teams. That's ok, that 25 million difference goes in Tommy's bank account.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 8, 2024 12:09:16 GMT -5
No but if the future core is being built from within who are now close to major league ready they aren't going to go ape shit crazy filling positions with veterans. Last year we saw them sign stop gap veterans because the prospects were still mostly in A ball , now they are not and most are in AAor AAA so why be signing a lot of veterans now? We all would love a team full of big name all stars because we feel better about the chances they do well over a team full of young players trying to establish themselves, but we also seen how that worked for the Mets, Yankees, Padres etc and how it worked for teams like the Orioles, DBacks etc There also has to be a vision about the payroll well in advance , will they be able to start signing young players to extensions like other teams are , not really if they are already pushing their nose against the luxury tax before the team is a legit year to year contender. Part of the reason the old core did not get any extensions was they were already over the luxury tax at the time it would have been best to offer them and they had no money coming off the books. There is way more to this then hey , this guys a good player lets sign him , you have to weigh cost into some moves , like Contreras for example who they didn't seem to love anyway, but was it going to be worth paying him 18 million a year when you can have both Gomes and Amaya for 6.5 ? I am not saying the Cubs should trade all their prospects and need star players on expensive contracts everywhere that is unrealistic and unsustainable, like you said it is about finding the right balance which is the challenge the FO is kind of facing right now, the potential impact prospects that we have been hyping in the Minor league thread is are very close BUT have a current roster that are a couple strong additions away from being serious contenders too. Right now I just see to many people worried about prospects being potentially being blocked if the Cubs sign certain guys and to me, that should not be a concern at moment to prevent the team to be a serious contender now too. I get it, but here is one example , say they sign Chapman, who I've flipped on like a fish out fo water . Does it make me happy for 2024 , hell yeah he's a very goiod but not great player and I think he makes them better. But if he requires say a 4 year deal or more , does that now make them think about trading a guy like Shaw ,since every position Shaw plays is pretty much held down for 3+ years and he won't need that long to be a major leaguer. In 2-3-4 years is Chapman better for the Cubs future than Shaw might have been for the next 6? It's not just about the now 2024 , it's about 2024 and beyond but we all seem too stuck on 2024.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 8, 2024 12:13:59 GMT -5
"I don't expect either to be as productive , but put yourself in a baseball and bussiness sense and is he going to be worth the money that is the difference of say 25 million a year to what these guys will be making which will be 720k." And this thought process right here is the difference between elite teams and middling teams. That's ok, that 25 million difference goes in Tommy's bank account. Are the Mets elite? With fines over half a BILLION flew out of Cohens bank account last year . $$$$ doesn't always equal success. I face reality and accept it , Ricketts is NEVER going to spend like Cohen does, LA does, etc so although I don't like it , I have to accept it because it's factual reality. So no sense for me to endlessly complain about it.
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Post by TheChico on Feb 8, 2024 12:17:34 GMT -5
I am not saying the Cubs should trade all their prospects and need star players on expensive contracts everywhere that is unrealistic and unsustainable, like you said it is about finding the right balance which is the challenge the FO is kind of facing right now, the potential impact prospects that we have been hyping in the Minor league thread is are very close BUT have a current roster that are a couple strong additions away from being serious contenders too. Right now I just see to many people worried about prospects being potentially being blocked if the Cubs sign certain guys and to me, that should not be a concern at moment to prevent the team to be a serious contender now too. I get it, but here is one example , say they sign Chapman, who I've flipped on like a fish out fo water . Does it make me happy for 2024 , hell yeah he's a very goiod but not great player and I think he makes them better. But if he requires say a 4 year deal or more , does that now make them think about trading a guy like Shaw ,since every position Shaw plays is pretty much held down for 3+ years and he won't need that long to be a major leaguer. In 2-3-4 years is Chapman better for the Cubs future than Shaw might have been for the next 6? It's not just about the now 2024 , it's about 2024 and beyond but we all seem too stuck on 2024. I totally get what your are saying and Chapman really just makes sense if the market craps out on him and can get a good value deal but at the same time I don't want to count on a prospect only has only 175 professional AB's who has barely played 3B either.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 8, 2024 12:29:07 GMT -5
"I don't expect either to be as productive , but put yourself in a baseball and bussiness sense and is he going to be worth the money that is the difference of say 25 million a year to what these guys will be making which will be 720k." And this thought process right here is the difference between elite teams and middling teams. That's ok, that 25 million difference goes in Tommy's bank account. Are the Mets elite? With fines over half a BILLION flew out of Cohens bank account last year . $$$$ doesn't always equal success. I face reality and accept it , Ricketts is NEVER going to spend like Cohen does, LA does, etc so although I don't like it , I have to accept it because it's factual reality. So no sense for me to endlessly complain about it. No, but the Phillies, Astros and Rangers are. Why do you keep referring to the Mets? Shit, at this point Tommy won't even spend like the Royals LOL
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 8, 2024 12:31:11 GMT -5
I am not saying the Cubs should trade all their prospects and need star players on expensive contracts everywhere that is unrealistic and unsustainable, like you said it is about finding the right balance which is the challenge the FO is kind of facing right now, the potential impact prospects that we have been hyping in the Minor league thread is are very close BUT have a current roster that are a couple strong additions away from being serious contenders too. Right now I just see to many people worried about prospects being potentially being blocked if the Cubs sign certain guys and to me, that should not be a concern at moment to prevent the team to be a serious contender now too. I get it, but here is one example , say they sign Chapman, who I've flipped on like a fish out fo water . Does it make me happy for 2024 , hell yeah he's a very goiod but not great player and I think he makes them better. But if he requires say a 4 year deal or more , does that now make them think about trading a guy like Shaw ,since every position Shaw plays is pretty much held down for 3+ years and he won't need that long to be a major leaguer. In 2-3-4 years is Chapman better for the Cubs future than Shaw might have been for the next 6? It's not just about the now 2024 , it's about 2024 and beyond but we all seem too stuck on 2024. So, you want to wait on prospects and not sign anyone? Like, we're still waiting for Brennan Davis smh
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Post by batman66 on Feb 8, 2024 12:58:51 GMT -5
Are the Mets elite? With fines over half a BILLION flew out of Cohens bank account last year . $$$$ doesn't always equal success. I face reality and accept it , Ricketts is NEVER going to spend like Cohen does, LA does, etc so although I don't like it , I have to accept it because it's factual reality. So no sense for me to endlessly complain about it. No, but the Phillies, Astros and Rangers are. Why do you keep referring to the Mets? Shit, at this point Tommy won't even spend like the Royals LOL And so are the Orioles, wanna know what their payroll was last season ? And I know you're just joking and being a smart ass , but Cubs payroll as of today 205, 047 Royals 158,576
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Post by batman66 on Feb 8, 2024 13:06:51 GMT -5
I get it, but here is one example , say they sign Chapman, who I've flipped on like a fish out fo water . Does it make me happy for 2024 , hell yeah he's a very goiod but not great player and I think he makes them better. But if he requires say a 4 year deal or more , does that now make them think about trading a guy like Shaw ,since every position Shaw plays is pretty much held down for 3+ years and he won't need that long to be a major leaguer. In 2-3-4 years is Chapman better for the Cubs future than Shaw might have been for the next 6? It's not just about the now 2024 , it's about 2024 and beyond but we all seem too stuck on 2024. So, you want to wait on prospects and not sign anyone? Like, we're still waiting for Brennan Davis smh Nope, did not say that. Here is the thing , when I talk about stuff like this it's not what I want them to do , it's what I imagine they will do and I'm trying to be realistic and look into the reasoning of why things are done or not done. I want them to spend 300 million , I want an established all star manning every position, it's not going to happen , so why endlessly bitch about it ? You call it me making excuses for them , I call it being in touch with reality of what likely will happen and why from an owner and baseball sense I think they do what they do. This is by FAR the best ownership this team has had in my lifetime, I'm not going to bitch about it day after day because they aren't signing everybody to an extension and every high prices all star free agent, I don't want to live that frustrating fan life of being disgruntled all the time, I want to enjoy being a Cubs fan so I try to see why things are done from the other sides perspective, not as the fan side because of course we'd all like to spend like crazy when it's not our money. And spending doesn't always = winning anyway.
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Post by fine09 on Feb 8, 2024 13:35:20 GMT -5
Agreed. I believe that they have marked PCA, Horton & Busch 3 guys that they have complete faith in as impact MLB players & sadly Bellinger “somewhat” blocks 2 of them which is why they are hesitant to go all in on a long term deal for Cody. I agree that flipping prospects is a great way to build up a team quickly because you sell high on “perceived” value as opposed to if you keep them they must succeed in order for it to work out great. That being said, I am also confident that one of Cassie / Alcantara will also be very good when all is said & done. Thats the thing with Bellinger , does he make them better in 2024 , probably but do you need to /have to spend what it would take to get him when you have Busch, PCA, Caissie, Alcantara around . I mean I would love to have Bellinger, no secret on here about how much I like the guy and want him to be a Cub again and he would no doubt make me feel a LOT better aboutt he Cubs chances in 2024 and if they don't sign him , yeah they might struggle in 2024 if they are counting on a rookie to hold the power load in the middle of the line up. But if Busch is the hitter most think he is and he can play a solid 1B , do they miss not signing Bellinger going forward? If PCA is what most of us expect in CF , do they miss Bellinger going forward? It would all make us feel better if they do sign him because we all feel more comfortable with veterans, but because of what else they have , I could see why they are not caving in to Boras demands and why they do want him back , but more on their terms and then worry about making the others fit. I don't know if I just talked in circles here or not , I'm going fucking crazy with all this non action, speculation, questions of who plays where shit already. That is the same thing that I am struggling with on signing Belli because his best value will be in CF & I just don't know that the Cubs are willing to deal a kid under 6 years of control that would most certainly put up 2 WAR without hitting at all just with his glove. Busch is less certain most likely but all signs point to him being able to hit & likely slots in at 1st. base and those issues coupled with the baseball wide uncertainty of him continuing to hit like he did brings me to the conclusion that I really don't know that they sign him AND keep PCA. This doesn't stop me from clicking on Traderumors every 2 hours though because I need something big to happen to feel better about our 2024 roster on opening day..
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Post by thisbuds4u on Feb 8, 2024 13:41:38 GMT -5
So, you want to wait on prospects and not sign anyone? Like, we're still waiting for Brennan Davis smh Nope, did not say that. Here is the thing , when I talk about stuff like this it's not what I want them to do , it's what I imagine they will do and I'm trying to be realistic and look into the reasoning of why things are done or not done. I want them to spend 300 million , I want an established all star manning every position, it's not going to happen , so why endlessly bitch about it ? You call it me making excuses for them , I call it being in touch with reality of what likely will happen and why from an owner and baseball sense I think they do what they do. This is by FAR the best ownership this team has had in my lifetime, I'm not going to bitch about it day after day because they aren't signing everybody to an extension and every high prices all star free agent, I don't want to live that frustrating fan life of being disgruntled all the time, I want to enjoy being a Cubs fan so I try to see why things are done from the other sides perspective, not as the fan side because of course we'd all like to spend like crazy when it's not our money. And spending doesn't always = winning anyway. It's tiring watching a roster constantly in flux. When the Cubs are ranked in the top 10 in payroll and have a farm system ranked in the top 5 there shouldn't be so many question marks concerning this team.
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Post by 20kman on Feb 9, 2024 19:03:42 GMT -5
"The sad thing is, the Cubs had a really good opportunity to build on the success of 2023 and didn't, other than getting Counsell. They could have accelerated the window and didn't. Now it's back to hoping the kids can play. We'll see." I think that was the plan when they decided to start building up the farm system again. I do think they would have signed some more talent for the right deal, and still may. By that I mean, I don't think they will bog down the organization to long term deals which could hinder them later on. I also don't believe they want to tie up a position for long term and block young players who deserve a shot.
I understand that it's easy to be disappointed going into the season with unknowns and having to rely on unproven players but I think their logic is sound. Give it a chance to work. They are not going to hit on every prospect they bring up but I think you have to give them a shot and there are a lot in the Cubs system that are deserving. If they don't work out, it's going to be a frustrating year. But even if some of them do, we have a shot at the division and more.
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