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Post by zegometer on Jun 1, 2016 16:52:24 GMT -5
I think everybody pretty much knows that I was anti-Richard all the way from the offseason, so I have no Richard love to worry about. IMO Baez could be traded, but for something the Cubs need ... a top of the rotation starter still in the minor leagues. The Nationals need a real shortstop. We need Lucas Giolitto. That's the main portion of a suitable trade. I havent been a fan of Richard or Cahill, although Charlie (its his nickname when he screws up and I yell at my TV) has had his good moments. Hes partially made me eat some crow at times. Other times he looks like a bum. I really dont know about the need for a TOR unless an injury occurs. It would be adding to a strength but we really need BP help. I wouldnt scoff at trading Baez for Giolitto but we may eat that one down the road. Im a bit reluctant to dealing Baez unless it blows us away. I think we have minors pieces to obtain a good young arm without dismantling the MLB squad. I do believe Baez is showing that he is part of the team and future. We do need BP help. Warren, Rondon, and 2/3's of Strop, are solid. Wood is showing major improvement. Grimm is ok. Besides that everyone else looks suspect. We definitely need a lefty specialist. The thing is they are a dime o' dozen. The only problem is that we dont have one. This can be fixed easily. I still think if we are looking at October we need one more bullet in the bullpen. And the options for trading there are infinite. You call Cahill Charlie? Funny... I call him Doughy, well because he looks like he's made out of dough!
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Post by Uncle Gary on Jun 1, 2016 20:10:17 GMT -5
Good thoughts. I am not sure they really need Eovaldi either but I do believe Hammel will run out of gas in the second half, Lackey does not have history of tiring but he is no spring chicken and Lester is aging too so he may be good insurance with a 102 mph fastball to boot.
Miller really is expensive, I agree.
Neither are my idea though. Cubs FO have made inquiries. That is why I bring them up.
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Post by dkessinger on Jun 2, 2016 10:59:01 GMT -5
Lester has been really good the last few times out.
But back to Richard. This week Jake's game against the Dodgers should be it. Richard was BRUTAL.
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Post by Uncle Gary on Jun 2, 2016 18:44:27 GMT -5
Agreed DFA Richard. Still need a lefty specialist in the pen
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Post by Uncle Gary on Jun 3, 2016 10:57:40 GMT -5
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Post by TheChico on Jun 3, 2016 11:13:26 GMT -5
Great to be a left handed pitcher in baseball, Richards has been brutal and still keeps his job, if he was a right hander he would be a free agent right now.
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Post by tehmpus on Jun 3, 2016 11:40:08 GMT -5
There has also been speculation about Andrew Miller. Maybe a package deal for the two. I can't imagine what the asking price will be for that. that sounds too expensive to be worthwhile IMO and to be honest, eovaldi doesn't fit on the roster right now. one guy they should look into is LHRP marc rzepczynski from oakland. he doesn't have great numbers overall but seems to be effective against lefties. he's a FA after this season and probably wouldn't be too expensive to acquire. give him a shot and see how he does. if he doesn't get it done, DFA and bring up concepcion. or maybe the other way around. give concepcion a shot and if that doesn't work look to acquire this guy or someone else. all i know for sure is that richard has got to go ASAP. he's the only weak link on the pitching staff. only guy with an ERA north of 4.... My point all along has been that the best path to winning the World Series is to get to the playoffs several years in a row. A lot of the times, the best team does not win the World Series. The winner is many times just a team who happened to get hot during the playoffs.
So trying to stack up the team for 1 particular year doesn't make sense. We need to do what Theo originally said, set up for sustained success, so that the team isn't limited to just a short "win now" window of opportunity.
People keep talking about the Cubs "homegrown" young talent, but let's get real. This talent is NOT homegrown. It was acquired via trade, free agency, or international signings. The only guy on the roster who wasn't a 1st rounder and could be truly considered "homegrown" is Matt Szczur. That's only 1 guy on a 25 man team.
A year and a half from now, Hammel & Arrieta will be free agents. Lackey will probably retire by then as well. That leaves us with Lester and Hendricks. Warren will probably move up into the rotation at that point, but that still leaves 2 openings in the starting rotation with no one currently in our minor leagues showing the development acquired to push for a promotion to the big leagues. We really NEED a starter at AAA that is just waiting for a spot to open up in the rotation. Right now, we have no one.
So, let's be smart and not just narrow the vision to just this one year, and a very enjoyable winning team, but rather look a bit into the future and prepare in advance.
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Post by Corndog on Jun 3, 2016 12:00:10 GMT -5
that sounds too expensive to be worthwhile IMO and to be honest, eovaldi doesn't fit on the roster right now. one guy they should look into is LHRP marc rzepczynski from oakland. he doesn't have great numbers overall but seems to be effective against lefties. he's a FA after this season and probably wouldn't be too expensive to acquire. give him a shot and see how he does. if he doesn't get it done, DFA and bring up concepcion. or maybe the other way around. give concepcion a shot and if that doesn't work look to acquire this guy or someone else. all i know for sure is that richard has got to go ASAP. he's the only weak link on the pitching staff. only guy with an ERA north of 4.... My point all along has been that the best path to winning the World Series is to get to the playoffs several years in a row. A lot of the times, the best team does not win the World Series. The winner is many times just a team who happened to get hot during the playoffs.
So trying to stack up the team for 1 particular year doesn't make sense. We need to do what Theo originally said, set up for sustained success, so that the team isn't limited to just a short "win now" window of opportunity.
People keep talking about the Cubs "homegrown" young talent, but let's get real. This talent is NOT homegrown. It was acquired via trade, free agency, or international signings. The only guy on the roster who wasn't a 1st rounder and could be truly considered "homegrown" is Matt Szczur. That's only 1 guy on a 25 man team.
A year and a half from now, Hammel & Arrieta will be free agents. Lackey will probably retire by then as well. That leaves us with Lester and Hendricks. Warren will probably move up into the rotation at that point, but that still leaves 2 openings in the starting rotation with no one currently in our minor leagues showing the development acquired to push for a promotion to the big leagues. We really NEED a starter at AAA that is just waiting for a spot to open up in the rotation. Right now, we have no one.
So, let's be smart and not just narrow the vision to just this one year, and a very enjoyable winning team, but rather look a bit into the future and prepare in advance.
We do need another starter, probably a couple for the future. In this last offseason many wanted to trade for a starter, but many of their ideas included trading Hendricks. In my opinion, that would be redundant. The good news is the Cubs system is loaded with position players. I am sure they can put together a package to lure a young starter to the team. It isn't an immediate need, but one that should be addressed within the next year or so. At least before Lackey and Arrieta's contracts expire.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 12:48:34 GMT -5
We also need to start drafting some pitching in the earlier rounds. I realize pitchers are more of a crapshoot in the draft, but we have more than enough elite position players in the system.
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Post by Corndog on Jun 3, 2016 13:02:16 GMT -5
We also need to start drafting some pitching in the earlier rounds. I realize pitchers are more of a crapshoot in the draft, but we have more than enough elite position players in the system. The first year of Hoyer/Theo they went pitch heavy, but other than that it has been position players. My assumption is they wanted to stockpile position players and trade them later on.
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Post by jerm42991 on Jun 3, 2016 13:51:11 GMT -5
We also need to start drafting some pitching in the earlier rounds. I realize pitchers are more of a crapshoot in the draft, but we have more than enough elite position players in the system. The first year of Hoyer/Theo they went pitch heavy, but other than that it has been position players. My assumption is they wanted to stockpile position players and trade them later on. In 2013 11 of the top 15 picks were pitchers In 2014 11 of the top 15 picks were pitchers In 2015 10 of the top 15 picks were pitchers They went pitch heavy every year
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Post by Corndog on Jun 3, 2016 13:53:07 GMT -5
Well I guess I was wrong there, whoops.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 13:55:00 GMT -5
that sounds too expensive to be worthwhile IMO and to be honest, eovaldi doesn't fit on the roster right now. one guy they should look into is LHRP marc rzepczynski from oakland. he doesn't have great numbers overall but seems to be effective against lefties. he's a FA after this season and probably wouldn't be too expensive to acquire. give him a shot and see how he does. if he doesn't get it done, DFA and bring up concepcion. or maybe the other way around. give concepcion a shot and if that doesn't work look to acquire this guy or someone else. all i know for sure is that richard has got to go ASAP. he's the only weak link on the pitching staff. only guy with an ERA north of 4.... My point all along has been that the best path to winning the World Series is to get to the playoffs several years in a row. A lot of the times, the best team does not win the World Series. The winner is many times just a team who happened to get hot during the playoffs.
So trying to stack up the team for 1 particular year doesn't make sense. We need to do what Theo originally said, set up for sustained success, so that the team isn't limited to just a short "win now" window of opportunity.
People keep talking about the Cubs "homegrown" young talent, but let's get real. This talent is NOT homegrown. It was acquired via trade, free agency, or international signings. The only guy on the roster who wasn't a 1st rounder and could be truly considered "homegrown" is Matt Szczur. That's only 1 guy on a 25 man team.
A year and a half from now, Hammel & Arrieta will be free agents. Lackey will probably retire by then as well. That leaves us with Lester and Hendricks. Warren will probably move up into the rotation at that point, but that still leaves 2 openings in the starting rotation with no one currently in our minor leagues showing the development acquired to push for a promotion to the big leagues. We really NEED a starter at AAA that is just waiting for a spot to open up in the rotation. Right now, we have no one.
So, let's be smart and not just narrow the vision to just this one year, and a very enjoyable winning team, but rather look a bit into the future and prepare in advance.
to your point that's why i would prefer to see concepcion get a shot before pursuing a deal. that said you're taking your stance way too far. with internal options exhausted, i'm advocating for a rental BP arm that would be relatively inexpensive to acquire. not the andrew miller's or aroldis chapman's of the world. i'm talking about a need for the roster, to fill literally the only flaw which just so happens to be a glaring one. what i'm not talking about doing is trading away valuable or highly rated assets that could be part of a package for a young TOR arm at some point. a farm system is not there just to produce homegrown talent, it's there to be used as currency and the cubs system is deep enough to do both IMO. i agree that it's not just about 2016, but there's a line that needs to be walked here. you don't pass on the opportunity to improve the team just because next year has to be considered as well. you don't pass on putting the finishing touches on a team for a run at a championship just because you want to develop your own players. i'm personally tired of saying "wait until next year" next year is now and the FO needs to do what's necessary to bring it home in 2016. winning now and preparing for the future are NOT mutually exclusive. as for the talk about homegrown talent, i don't agree with you on what defines as homegrown. i consider hendricks homegrown at least to an extent. he spent 2+ years developing in the cubs system. soler was and still is a raw player and has developed more in the cubs system than he has at over any stretch in his life. willson contreras is on the cusp. javy baez, kyle schwarber and kris bryant are homegrown. drafted by the cubs and developed in the cubs system. by my count (which is a more accurate one) the cubs have 5 exclusively homegrown players on the big league roster (obvious caveat for schwarber being hurt) and 1-2 partially homegrown in hendricks and russell. soler i could give a little on, but not counting baez, bryant and schwarber as purely homegrown is ludicrous.
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Post by tehmpus on Jun 3, 2016 20:35:57 GMT -5
Orval, when a player is a first round draft pick, he already has a ton of talent and skill before ever entering the system. At that point, the player doesn't need a whole new system of learning, but rather a bit of polishing before being sent to the majors.
Schwarber, Bryant, and Baez were all 1st rounders. Hendricks started as a Texas Ranger, and Russell started as an Oakland A. You want to disagree with my assessment, that's fine, but facts are facts. The only non-1st rounder drafted by the Cubs currently on this team is Matt Sczcur (and he wouldn't even still be on the team if Schwarber hadn't been injured)
You're tired of saying "wait until next year"? We're all tired of that. What makes you any more special in that regard than the rest of us Cubs fans? But what got us here? The best way to win a World Series is by going to the playoffs year after year after year. Eventually we will win it. I hope we win it this year, but we certainly shouldn't do any future mortgaging to try to obtain an Aroldis Chapman or Andrew Miller as fans on talk radio have suggested. I'm not saying that you are one of those people, but that's the mentality. We're talking about people that are willing to sacrifice anything just for a slight increase to our chances in 2016. You're right that you don't have sacrifice four years to just get a slightly better shot for this year. You suggest Conception. Personally, I like Patton better at this point:
ERA 1.42, 19IP 13H 29SOs and he's the Iowa closer. No, he's not left-handed, but sometimes you just have to get outs no matter what arm you throw with.
I'd even suggest that Carl Edwards has been more dominant than Conception. Suffice it to say, I agree that Richards is dead weight. He was dead weight before the season even started, and the games have just proven my point.
But in terms of trade, I'm looking at a 4 year span of needs (not just this year) for the better chance at winning a World Series through sustained success. If you look at a 4 year grouping, there are two glaring needs, and neither one is a bullpen arm.
Need#1: Starting pitching that is ready in 1 1/2 years. Some people claim that the Cubs have the talent. We just need to wait for it to develop in our minor leagues. Sounds good, but then I notice that Matt Szczur is the only true homegrown talent that isn't a first rounder, and I have to wonder if our minor leagues will develop a starter by then (let alone the two we need). Look at Pierce Johnson. Has he developed? What about Corey Black? Underwood? The Cubs need to continue to improve the teaching in the minor leagues, and we need to keep adding players to the system.
Need#2: Money for extensions. Bryant, Schwarber, Russell, Soler, Hendricks.... we are enjoying all of these budding young stars. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to keep more than just 1 or 2 when they get their 6 years of major league service time? That means we have to free up money around that time in terms of contract allocations, and spend money wisely so we can keep as many of these talented youngsters as we can.
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Post by tehmpus on Jun 4, 2016 19:16:25 GMT -5
My point all along has been that the best path to winning the World Series is to get to the playoffs several years in a row. A lot of the times, the best team does not win the World Series. The winner is many times just a team who happened to get hot during the playoffs.
So trying to stack up the team for 1 particular year doesn't make sense. We need to do what Theo originally said, set up for sustained success, so that the team isn't limited to just a short "win now" window of opportunity.
People keep talking about the Cubs "homegrown" young talent, but let's get real. This talent is NOT homegrown. It was acquired via trade, free agency, or international signings. The only guy on the roster who wasn't a 1st rounder and could be truly considered "homegrown" is Matt Szczur. That's only 1 guy on a 25 man team.
A year and a half from now, Hammel & Arrieta will be free agents. Lackey will probably retire by then as well. That leaves us with Lester and Hendricks. Warren will probably move up into the rotation at that point, but that still leaves 2 openings in the starting rotation with no one currently in our minor leagues showing the development acquired to push for a promotion to the big leagues. We really NEED a starter at AAA that is just waiting for a spot to open up in the rotation. Right now, we have no one.
So, let's be smart and not just narrow the vision to just this one year, and a very enjoyable winning team, but rather look a bit into the future and prepare in advance.
to your point that's why i would prefer to see concepcion get a shot before pursuing a deal. that said you're taking your stance way too far. with internal options exhausted, i'm advocating for a rental BP arm that would be relatively inexpensive to acquire. not the andrew miller's or aroldis chapman's of the world. i'm talking about a need for the roster, to fill literally the only flaw which just so happens to be a glaring one. what i'm not talking about doing is trading away valuable or highly rated assets that could be part of a package for a young TOR arm at some point. a farm system is not there just to produce homegrown talent, it's there to be used as currency and the cubs system is deep enough to do both IMO. i agree that it's not just about 2016, but there's a line that needs to be walked here. you don't pass on the opportunity to improve the team just because next year has to be considered as well. you don't pass on putting the finishing touches on a team for a run at a championship just because you want to develop your own players. i'm personally tired of saying "wait until next year" next year is now and the FO needs to do what's necessary to bring it home in 2016. winning now and preparing for the future are NOT mutually exclusive. as for the talk about homegrown talent, i don't agree with you on what defines as homegrown. i consider hendricks homegrown at least to an extent. he spent 2+ years developing in the cubs system. soler was and still is a raw player and has developed more in the cubs system than he has at over any stretch in his life. willson contreras is on the cusp. javy baez, kyle schwarber and kris bryant are homegrown. drafted by the cubs and developed in the cubs system. by my count (which is a more accurate one) the cubs have 5 exclusively homegrown players on the big league roster (obvious caveat for schwarber being hurt) and 1-2 partially homegrown in hendricks and russell. soler i could give a little on, but not counting baez, bryant and schwarber as purely homegrown is ludicrous. Orval, look at the 3 minor league pitchers we are talking about promoting from the Cubs minor league system: Conception, Edwards, and Patton. None of these guys were drafted by the Cubs and developed by the Cubs. Conception was an international free agent. Edwards and Patton were both acquired from the Texas Rangers via trade. I hate to say it, but this is something we've seen over and over again. The Cubs get talent seemingly only from other sources. They don't teach and create it themselves.
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Post by chifan89 on Jun 4, 2016 19:19:12 GMT -5
to your point that's why i would prefer to see concepcion get a shot before pursuing a deal. that said you're taking your stance way too far. with internal options exhausted, i'm advocating for a rental BP arm that would be relatively inexpensive to acquire. not the andrew miller's or aroldis chapman's of the world. i'm talking about a need for the roster, to fill literally the only flaw which just so happens to be a glaring one. what i'm not talking about doing is trading away valuable or highly rated assets that could be part of a package for a young TOR arm at some point. a farm system is not there just to produce homegrown talent, it's there to be used as currency and the cubs system is deep enough to do both IMO. i agree that it's not just about 2016, but there's a line that needs to be walked here. you don't pass on the opportunity to improve the team just because next year has to be considered as well. you don't pass on putting the finishing touches on a team for a run at a championship just because you want to develop your own players. i'm personally tired of saying "wait until next year" next year is now and the FO needs to do what's necessary to bring it home in 2016. winning now and preparing for the future are NOT mutually exclusive. as for the talk about homegrown talent, i don't agree with you on what defines as homegrown. i consider hendricks homegrown at least to an extent. he spent 2+ years developing in the cubs system. soler was and still is a raw player and has developed more in the cubs system than he has at over any stretch in his life. willson contreras is on the cusp. javy baez, kyle schwarber and kris bryant are homegrown. drafted by the cubs and developed in the cubs system. by my count (which is a more accurate one) the cubs have 5 exclusively homegrown players on the big league roster (obvious caveat for schwarber being hurt) and 1-2 partially homegrown in hendricks and russell. soler i could give a little on, but not counting baez, bryant and schwarber as purely homegrown is ludicrous. Orval, look at the 3 minor league pitchers we are talking about promoting from the Cubs minor league system: Conception, Edwards, and Patton. None of these guys were drafted by the Cubs and developed by the Cubs. Conception was an international free agent. Edwards and Patton were both acquired from the Texas Rangers via trade. I hate to say it, but this is something we've seen over and over again. The Cubs get talent seemingly only from other sources. They don't teach and create it themselves. You're clueless.
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Post by tehmpus on Jun 4, 2016 19:20:25 GMT -5
Since you think you have a clue, back up your opinion with facts. (if you can)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 19:05:52 GMT -5
to your point that's why i would prefer to see concepcion get a shot before pursuing a deal. that said you're taking your stance way too far. with internal options exhausted, i'm advocating for a rental BP arm that would be relatively inexpensive to acquire. not the andrew miller's or aroldis chapman's of the world. i'm talking about a need for the roster, to fill literally the only flaw which just so happens to be a glaring one. what i'm not talking about doing is trading away valuable or highly rated assets that could be part of a package for a young TOR arm at some point. a farm system is not there just to produce homegrown talent, it's there to be used as currency and the cubs system is deep enough to do both IMO. i agree that it's not just about 2016, but there's a line that needs to be walked here. you don't pass on the opportunity to improve the team just because next year has to be considered as well. you don't pass on putting the finishing touches on a team for a run at a championship just because you want to develop your own players. i'm personally tired of saying "wait until next year" next year is now and the FO needs to do what's necessary to bring it home in 2016. winning now and preparing for the future are NOT mutually exclusive. as for the talk about homegrown talent, i don't agree with you on what defines as homegrown. i consider hendricks homegrown at least to an extent. he spent 2+ years developing in the cubs system. soler was and still is a raw player and has developed more in the cubs system than he has at over any stretch in his life. willson contreras is on the cusp. javy baez, kyle schwarber and kris bryant are homegrown. drafted by the cubs and developed in the cubs system. by my count (which is a more accurate one) the cubs have 5 exclusively homegrown players on the big league roster (obvious caveat for schwarber being hurt) and 1-2 partially homegrown in hendricks and russell. soler i could give a little on, but not counting baez, bryant and schwarber as purely homegrown is ludicrous. Orval, look at the 3 minor league pitchers we are talking about promoting from the Cubs minor league system: Conception, Edwards, and Patton. None of these guys were drafted by the Cubs and developed by the Cubs. Conception was an international free agent. Edwards and Patton were both acquired from the Texas Rangers via trade. I hate to say it, but this is something we've seen over and over again. The Cubs get talent seemingly only from other sources. They don't teach and create it themselves. that's an odd take and makes little to no sense at all. just because concepcion was an IFA it means the cubs don't get credit for developing him over the last 4 years? that's absurd. edwards has been developing in the cubs system for longer than he did in the rangers system. your argument is flawed as one can be and honestly you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 19:06:12 GMT -5
Since you think you have a clue, back up your opinion with facts. (if you can) how ironic of you LOL you have no facts behind your stance at all other than when/how these guys were acquired. you're just treating your opinion on everything after their acquisitions as a fact which means nothing considering your flawed logic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 19:28:40 GMT -5
I hate to say it, but this is something we've seen over and over again. The Cubs get talent seemingly only from other sources. They don't teach and create it themselves. As do most teams that haven't invested in the farm system for a long period of time. The Cubs are doing that now and will see those kids rise up through the system.
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