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Post by kfidd on Jun 13, 2023 15:27:17 GMT -5
Another one on a much less impactful level, with the Mets losing Alonso for ~4 weeks and looking to at bare minimum tread water for now, I wonder if Mancini or Wisdom could be appealing to them. They don’t have a great first base option in the minors and these last few days have really shuffled their players around trying to make something work. Either Wisdom or Mancini might get sparked by a change of scenery and the asking price for either wouldn’t be high at all, something the Mets could be comfortable with.
Might also rebuild that relationship a bit after the PCA fleece and their apparent unwillingness to work with the Cubs since.
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Post by batman66 on Jun 13, 2023 15:35:18 GMT -5
Another one on a much less impactful level, with the Mets losing Alonso for ~4 weeks and looking to at bare minimum tread water for now, I wonder if Mancini or Wisdom could be appealing to them. They don’t have a great first base option in the minors and these last few days have really shuffled their players around trying to make something work. Either Wisdom or Mancini might get sparked by a change of scenery and the asking price for either wouldn’t be high at all, something the Mets could be comfortable with. Might also rebuild that relationship a bit after the PCA fleece and their apparent unwillingness to work with the Cubs since. they signed Luke Voigt yesterday, not sure how that will work out for them though. They also have Vientos who is a solid prospect who can play 1b but seem a bit reluctant to play him.
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Post by kfidd on Jun 13, 2023 16:04:15 GMT -5
Another one on a much less impactful level, with the Mets losing Alonso for ~4 weeks and looking to at bare minimum tread water for now, I wonder if Mancini or Wisdom could be appealing to them. They don’t have a great first base option in the minors and these last few days have really shuffled their players around trying to make something work. Either Wisdom or Mancini might get sparked by a change of scenery and the asking price for either wouldn’t be high at all, something the Mets could be comfortable with. Might also rebuild that relationship a bit after the PCA fleece and their apparent unwillingness to work with the Cubs since. they signed Luke Voigt yesterday, not sure how that will work out for them though. They also have Vientos who is a solid prospect who can play 1b but seem a bit reluctant to play him. Damn, I missed the Voigt signing. I don’t get it either with Vientos. It feels like Ross trying everything in his power to keep a kid out of the lineup. Just look at the movement for the Mets today to shuffle pieces around: LF McNeil (.705 OPS) DH Pham (.817) 2B Guillorme (.593) 1B Canha (.727) I’m sure there are reasons for Ross and Showalter doing what they do. I’m not sure I’ll ever understand it without whatever resources and insights they have access to. But as a fan it’s incredibly frustrating and if I was a Mets fan (LOL) I’d be so beyond irritated. You’ve got a tremendously disappointing offense missing its key slugger to injury and you’re favoring that over your minor league slugging champ? What does Guillorme give you that is worth taking McNeil out of position for and keeping Vientos out of the lineup as opposed to letting the kid swing and keeping everyone at their natural positions? *scratches head*
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jun 13, 2023 18:31:17 GMT -5
We're now arguing about whether a guy is selfish or not because he won't accept a trade and comeback in the offseason as a free agent? HA HA! This is ridiculous. Losing has Cub fans falling off the deep end lol
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jun 13, 2023 18:36:00 GMT -5
That doesn't happen very often, and Stro doesn't strike me as a guy that would be happy about something like that. Also, someone mentioned the risk of age, injury, ect. Well yeah, we can do that with every single pitcher, all the time. At what point do you not have that mentality? Just feels like fans create this narrative when a guy isn't coming back. Take a chance or don't take a chance, period. No need for excuses. If Stro actually does want to be a Cub for the rest of his career then why in the world would he not want "his" team to be the best that it can be - by acquiring top talent from his trade & then re-sign with them. Honestly, if he doesn't like that then that most likely means he either doesn't understand the concept - which means he's an idiot -OR- he is selfish, which in either case I don't want that kind of player on our team long term if that's the case. "Honestly, if he doesn't like that then that most likely means he either doesn't understand the concept - which means he's an idiot -OR- he is selfish, which in either case I don't want that kind of player on our team long term if that's the case." This is hilarious!!! OR..... he can just sign as a free agent with a team that's winning NOW and not wait maybe 3-4 years when he's like 40 years old LMAO Yeah, who's the selfish one?
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Post by fine09 on Jun 14, 2023 6:23:11 GMT -5
If Stro actually does want to be a Cub for the rest of his career then why in the world would he not want "his" team to be the best that it can be - by acquiring top talent from his trade & then re-sign with them. Honestly, if he doesn't like that then that most likely means he either doesn't understand the concept - which means he's an idiot -OR- he is selfish, which in either case I don't want that kind of player on our team long term if that's the case. "Honestly, if he doesn't like that then that most likely means he either doesn't understand the concept - which means he's an idiot -OR- he is selfish, which in either case I don't want that kind of player on our team long term if that's the case." This is hilarious!!! OR..... he can just sign as a free agent with a team that's winning NOW and not wait maybe 3-4 years when he's like 40 years old LMAO Yeah, who's the selfish one? Your theory doesn't hold water with Stro though because they really haven't been what we would call a "Winning now" team - yet he has stated his desire to stay with the Cubs for his career. You really need to think things through before you hit "post" Steve.. So now the Cubs won't be competitive until 2026 or 2027? Look who's hilarious now.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 14, 2023 6:25:13 GMT -5
We're now arguing about whether a guy is selfish or not because he won't accept a trade and comeback in the offseason as a free agent? HA HA! This is ridiculous. Losing has Cub fans falling off the deep end lol Of course - except for the part where it has happened numerous times in the past. Good story though..
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jun 14, 2023 10:42:39 GMT -5
Keep up the good work... you already painted Stro as an "idiot" or "selfish", nice.
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Post by TheChico on Jun 14, 2023 11:56:32 GMT -5
Another one on a much less impactful level, with the Mets losing Alonso for ~4 weeks and looking to at bare minimum tread water for now, I wonder if Mancini or Wisdom could be appealing to them. They don’t have a great first base option in the minors and these last few days have really shuffled their players around trying to make something work. Either Wisdom or Mancini might get sparked by a change of scenery and the asking price for either wouldn’t be high at all, something the Mets could be comfortable with. Might also rebuild that relationship a bit after the PCA fleece and their apparent unwillingness to work with the Cubs since. they signed Luke Voigt yesterday, not sure how that will work out for them though. They also have Vientos who is a solid prospect who can play 1b but seem a bit reluctant to play him. I wonder if the Mets be willing to move Vientos in a trade, I know he has his flaws but the dude has massive power and a good gamble for the Cubs to take. Mets need another bat and could add Bellinger and a bullpen arm like MerryWeather to make it happen?
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Post by batman66 on Jun 14, 2023 12:39:35 GMT -5
they signed Luke Voigt yesterday, not sure how that will work out for them though. They also have Vientos who is a solid prospect who can play 1b but seem a bit reluctant to play him. I wonder if the Mets be willing to move Vientos in a trade, I know he has his flaws but the dude has massive power and a good gamble for the Cubs to take. Mets need another bat and could add Bellinger and a bullpen arm like MerryWeather to make it happen? It's possible, he really doesn't have a place there and he's struggled the times he's been up so far, last season and this year an identical .167 .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 12:53:32 GMT -5
I could very well see Jed hang on until the halfway point of the season to revisit the situation.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Jun 14, 2023 13:01:04 GMT -5
"Honestly, if he doesn't like that then that most likely means he either doesn't understand the concept - which means he's an idiot -OR- he is selfish, which in either case I don't want that kind of player on our team long term if that's the case." This is hilarious!!! OR..... he can just sign as a free agent with a team that's winning NOW and not wait maybe 3-4 years when he's like 40 years old LMAO Yeah, who's the selfish one? Your theory doesn't hold water with Stro though because they really haven't been what we would call a "Winning now" team - yet he has stated his desire to stay with the Cubs for his career. You really need to think things through before you hit "post" Steve.. So now the Cubs won't be competitive until 2026 or 2027? Look who's hilarious now. The Cubs may not be competitive till 2026 or 2027. The Reds, Pirates and Cardinals farm systems are all ranked higher than the Cubs so there is no clear advantage there. The biggest advantage the Cubs have is the ability to spend money on free agents or retaining players and yet they seem hesitant to do so. What's cause for concern is when the Cubs have brought players up from the minors, they've been less than impressive. And players like K. Thompson, Hughes and Wesneski have regressed from last year.
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Post by batman66 on Jun 14, 2023 13:13:13 GMT -5
Your theory doesn't hold water with Stro though because they really haven't been what we would call a "Winning now" team - yet he has stated his desire to stay with the Cubs for his career. You really need to think things through before you hit "post" Steve.. So now the Cubs won't be competitive until 2026 or 2027? Look who's hilarious now. The Cubs may not be competitive till 2026 or 2027. The Reds, Pirates and Cardinals farm systems are all ranked higher than the Cubs so there is no clear advantage there. The biggest advantage the Cubs have is the ability to spend money on free agents or retaining players and yet they seem hesitant to do so. What's cause for concern is when the Cubs have brought players up from the minors, they've been less than impressive. And players like K. Thompson, Hughes and Wesneski have regressed from last year. The Reds and Pirates always tend to mess things up , they were loaded in prospects a few years ago and nothing never materialized from it other than a season or so where they were decent so I'm not too worried about them and while STL farm is ahead of the Cubs and they always produce, they aren't far ahead a a good portion of what has them there is having the #1 prospect in baseball right now and , Goldy and Arenado aren't going to last forever. I'm still worried about them standing in the Cubs way though , not so much the Reds and Pirates because they won't spend to take the next step, or they won't spend wisely . I think we got a bit spoiled by the last core and some have forgotten the norm is for prospects to struggle a bit and take 2-3 shots or so at the majors before they figure things out.
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Post by irishcubfan on Jun 14, 2023 13:43:10 GMT -5
The Cubs may not be competitive till 2026 or 2027. The Reds, Pirates and Cardinals farm systems are all ranked higher than the Cubs so there is no clear advantage there. The biggest advantage the Cubs have is the ability to spend money on free agents or retaining players and yet they seem hesitant to do so. What's cause for concern is when the Cubs have brought players up from the minors, they've been less than impressive. And players like K. Thompson, Hughes and Wesneski have regressed from last year. The Reds and Pirates always tend to mess things up , they were loaded in prospects a few years ago and nothing never materialized from it other than a season or so where they were decent so I'm not too worried about them and while STL farm is ahead of the Cubs and they always produce, they aren't far ahead a a good portion of what has them there is having the #1 prospect in baseball right now and , Goldy and Arenado aren't going to last forever. I'm still worried about them standing in the Cubs way though , not so much the Reds and Pirates because they won't spend to take the next step, or they won't spend wisely . I think we got a bit spoiled by the last core and some have forgotten the norm is for prospects to struggle a bit and take 2-3 shots or so at the majors before they figure things out. If prospects fail 2 or 3 times doesn't 2026 make more sense than say 2024?
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Post by irishcubfan on Jun 14, 2023 13:45:40 GMT -5
Cubs don't even play their own flawed first base prospect on a regular basis, Vientos would just be waiting in line until Ross loses his love affair with players such as Mastrobouni and Tauchman and than a new fav would appear out of the woodwork.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Jun 14, 2023 13:45:51 GMT -5
The Cubs may not be competitive till 2026 or 2027. The Reds, Pirates and Cardinals farm systems are all ranked higher than the Cubs so there is no clear advantage there. The biggest advantage the Cubs have is the ability to spend money on free agents or retaining players and yet they seem hesitant to do so. What's cause for concern is when the Cubs have brought players up from the minors, they've been less than impressive. And players like K. Thompson, Hughes and Wesneski have regressed from last year. The Reds and Pirates always tend to mess things up , they were loaded in prospects a few years ago and nothing never materialized from it other than a season or so where they were decent so I'm not too worried about them and while STL farm is ahead of the Cubs and they always produce, they aren't far ahead a a good portion of what has them there is having the #1 prospect in baseball right now and , Goldy and Arenado aren't going to last forever. I'm still worried about them standing in the Cubs way though , not so much the Reds and Pirates because they won't spend to take the next step, or they won't spend wisely . I think we got a bit spoiled by the last core and some have forgotten the norm is for prospects to struggle a bit and take 2-3 shots or so at the majors before they figure things out. For a team that took over 100 years to win a World Series, the Cubs are pretty good at messing things up too, LOL. I agree it takes awhile for players to get acclimated to playing in the majors and these other teams are letting their young guys play whereas the Cubs seem to jerk their players around. Amaya, Morel and Mervis should be getting more playing time over Barnhart, Mastrobuoni and Mancini. If the Cubs are in a "win now" mode, Hoyer and Hawkins should have built a better bench and bullpen. If it's looking towards the future, then adding unproductive veterans to block there path makes no sense.
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Post by kfidd on Jun 14, 2023 13:54:54 GMT -5
I wonder if the Mets be willing to move Vientos in a trade, I know he has his flaws but the dude has massive power and a good gamble for the Cubs to take. Mets need another bat and could add Bellinger and a bullpen arm like MerryWeather to make it happen? Vientos would be an interesting target. He’s a proven slugger in the minors and is still just 23 years young. He’s a guy you’d probably like to see stick at 3B if possible, though my understanding is his defense is pretty meh at best. Assessing his value could be a bit tricky, and apparently they weren’t interested in flipping him for Contreras last deadline even though they badly needed offense and were completely void of it at catcher. If Bellinger comes back and establishes himself as the hitter he was in April, he should be mighty attractive to a team like the Mets that needs to contend, not just because of their recent spending but also their aging rotation. But at that point I would want more than Vientos for Bellinger, who in this scenario would be rolling into the deadline really crushing the ball as opposed to Contreras last time around who was barely crawling into it. That’s not to mention Merryweather, who has been pretty dominant since his first outing. Both he and Bellinger could be highly sought after. Maybe they don’t trade Baty under any circumstances but that’s still my starting point. If you can’t make headway there and there aren’t better trade matches out there (Houston and San Diego match up quite well me thinks) then I think Vientos would be a good pivot. But I’m not sure if I’d be happy with just him as a return for a surging Bellinger and Merryweather pairing, and after Baty I’m not seeing anything enticing there that the Mets could offer up.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jun 14, 2023 14:53:57 GMT -5
The issue for me with the Cubs is there just doesn't seem to be an progression. Pitchers are doing well, but the guys doing well are only here for 2 years maybe with Stro leaving after this year possibly and Smyly after next year (and he's older). Steele looks great, but we have to hope no injuries, but the what?
As for hitters, 91 losses in 2021, 88 losses in 2022 and it looks like that same range here in 2023. Where's the progression? Yes, I'm worried, that 2024-2025 is a issue too. This is taking long for a team that has a lot of money and tried to load up on prospects.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jun 14, 2023 14:59:49 GMT -5
I wonder if the Mets be willing to move Vientos in a trade, I know he has his flaws but the dude has massive power and a good gamble for the Cubs to take. Mets need another bat and could add Bellinger and a bullpen arm like MerryWeather to make it happen? Vientos would be an interesting target. He’s a proven slugger in the minors and is still just 23 years young. He’s a guy you’d probably like to see stick at 3B if possible, though my understanding is his defense is pretty meh at best. Assessing his value could be a bit tricky, and apparently they weren’t interested in flipping him for Contreras last deadline even though they badly needed offense and were completely void of it at catcher. If Bellinger comes back and establishes himself as the hitter he was in April, he should be mighty attractive to a team like the Mets that needs to contend, not just because of their recent spending but also their aging rotation. But at that point I would want more than Vientos for Bellinger, who in this scenario would be rolling into the deadline really crushing the ball as opposed to Contreras last time around who was barely crawling into it. That’s not to mention Merryweather, who has been pretty dominant since his first outing. Both he and Bellinger could be highly sought after. Maybe they don’t trade Baty under any circumstances but that’s still my starting point. If you can’t make headway there and there aren’t better trade matches out there (Houston and San Diego match up quite well me thinks) then I think Vientos would be a good pivot. But I’m not sure if I’d be happy with just him as a return for a surging Bellinger and Merryweather pairing, and after Baty I’m not seeing anything enticing there that the Mets could offer up. I don't think teams will line up to give good prospects for Bellinger. He already has a knee issue AND you only get him half a season. I also don't think Wisdom has as much trade value as you think. The Cubs aren't the only team with guys with an OPS+ around 100 that can hit HRs. We're reaching here if we think anyone on the roster nets a good return outside of Stroman.
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Post by kfidd on Jun 14, 2023 15:13:57 GMT -5
Vientos would be an interesting target. He’s a proven slugger in the minors and is still just 23 years young. He’s a guy you’d probably like to see stick at 3B if possible, though my understanding is his defense is pretty meh at best. Assessing his value could be a bit tricky, and apparently they weren’t interested in flipping him for Contreras last deadline even though they badly needed offense and were completely void of it at catcher. If Bellinger comes back and establishes himself as the hitter he was in April, he should be mighty attractive to a team like the Mets that needs to contend, not just because of their recent spending but also their aging rotation. But at that point I would want more than Vientos for Bellinger, who in this scenario would be rolling into the deadline really crushing the ball as opposed to Contreras last time around who was barely crawling into it. That’s not to mention Merryweather, who has been pretty dominant since his first outing. Both he and Bellinger could be highly sought after. Maybe they don’t trade Baty under any circumstances but that’s still my starting point. If you can’t make headway there and there aren’t better trade matches out there (Houston and San Diego match up quite well me thinks) then I think Vientos would be a good pivot. But I’m not sure if I’d be happy with just him as a return for a surging Bellinger and Merryweather pairing, and after Baty I’m not seeing anything enticing there that the Mets could offer up. I don't think teams will line up to give good prospects for Bellinger. He already has a knee issue AND you only get him half a season. I also don't think Wisdom has as much trade value as you think. The Cubs aren't the only team with guys with an OPS+ around 100 that can hit HRs. We're reaching here if we think anyone on the roster nets a good return outside of Stroman. I don’t think I’ve ever suggested Wisdom would net a good return. I did say recently that maybe the Cubs should contact the Mets and dangle one of Wisdom/Mancini for some 1B depth while Alonso is out, but I was under no illusion the return would be worth much. Sometimes it’s more about freeing up the roster spot than the return itself. And I think we need to establish what is a good return for certain players. A good return doesn’t have to be a top 50 or top 100 prospect. Right now who could be valuable trade assets on this team? Minor leagues aside, I’d suggest Stroman, Bellinger, Gomes, Merryweather, and Leiter Jr are the standouts. That doesn’t mean they are all netting top prospects, but it’s often not about that, it’s about evaluation. Look at the David Robertson for Ben Brown trade. Brown was the Phillies 26th ranked prospect at the time. Now he’s possibly our best pitching prospect who has been fast tracked and could make an impact out of the bullpen any time now.
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