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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jul 17, 2024 8:43:49 GMT -5
Looking at the production of third basemen this season, it furthers emphasizes for me that unless we wanted to swing big in a Baltimore trade sending pitching for either Westburg or Mayo we are best off just riding the potential of Morel until/if either second base opens up for him or they determine Shaw is capable and ready for third base in the bigs. The options for proven alternatives simply aren’t there. Ranking third basemen by OPS in 2024 1. Devers - .977 2. Smith (Texas) - .861 3. Ramirez - .842 4. Bohm - .830 5. Paredes - .823 6. Westburg - .814 That’s literally it for third baseman putting up an .800+ OPS this season. There is no one we could acquire that could potentially step in as an immediate difference maker for us outside of Baltimore’s kiddos and even then they are both young and still proving themselves. If you can get one? Those are dice worth rolling. But realistically I think you have to ride out Morel for at least the remainder of this season. I still think there is some intriguing potential there and no other option is likely worth it. And once Bellinger returns DH is likely lost anyways. This is what I had been saying. People want 3b solidified, but honestly, there's just nothing out there, which is why I though Chapman was worth the cost/years. At this point now, I just think Shaw will get there sooner rather than later. He's a college bat, so unless he struggles, there's no need for him to spend too much time in the minors.
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Post by batman66 on Jul 17, 2024 10:07:36 GMT -5
Looking at the production of third basemen this season, it furthers emphasizes for me that unless we wanted to swing big in a Baltimore trade sending pitching for either Westburg or Mayo we are best off just riding the potential of Morel until/if either second base opens up for him or they determine Shaw is capable and ready for third base in the bigs. The options for proven alternatives simply aren’t there. Ranking third basemen by OPS in 2024 1. Devers - .977 2. Smith (Texas) - .861 3. Ramirez - .842 4. Bohm - .830 5. Paredes - .823 6. Westburg - .814 That’s literally it for third baseman putting up an .800+ OPS this season. There is no one we could acquire that could potentially step in as an immediate difference maker for us outside of Baltimore’s kiddos and even then they are both young and still proving themselves. If you can get one? Those are dice worth rolling. But realistically I think you have to ride out Morel for at least the remainder of this season. I still think there is some intriguing potential there and no other option is likely worth it. And once Bellinger returns DH is likely lost anyways. This is what I had been saying. People want 3b solidified, but honestly, there's just nothing out there, which is why I though Chapman was worth the cost/years. At this point now, I just think Shaw will get there sooner rather than later. He's a college bat, so unless he struggles, there's no need for him to spend too much time in the minors. Shaw probably won't need a lot of AAA time , but who knows with Jed , his numbers this season are solid but not eye popping like last season with the high batting average but he has a 134 wRC+ this season so he's not having a down season like some people think. The only thing is and I've read it more than once but there seems to be some worry about his arm being strong enough for everyday 3b.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jul 17, 2024 10:48:21 GMT -5
They say he'll be fine at 3B to start his career so at least for the time being that works. Probably why Cam Smith was drafted.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Jul 17, 2024 13:13:40 GMT -5
This is what I had been saying. People want 3b solidified, but honestly, there's just nothing out there, which is why I though Chapman was worth the cost/years. At this point now, I just think Shaw will get there sooner rather than later. He's a college bat, so unless he struggles, there's no need for him to spend too much time in the minors. Shaw probably won't need a lot of AAA time , but who knows with Jed , his numbers this season are solid but not eye popping like last season with the high batting average but he has a 134 wRC+ this season so he's not having a down season like some people think. The only thing is and I've read it more than once but there seems to be some worry about his arm being strong enough for everyday 3b. Why does the focus always seem to be on what a player can't do instead of what he can do when it comes to minor league players?
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Post by kfidd on Jul 18, 2024 5:23:14 GMT -5
Could Logan O’Hoppe be a possible trade target out of Anaheim? He doesn’t seem like the type of player a shit rebuilding team would give up but they are also in bad shape with their roster both in the majors and minors alike. FanGraphs has them as the 30th ranked farm in the game.
Age: 24 Free agent: 2029 Catcher .276/.328/.472/.800, 14 home runs in just 290 plate appearances
I’ve never seen him play but he’s regarded as a bat first catcher with average plus defensive abilities. Perhaps a hefty package of young minor league talent to restock their farm and future?
Just blathering. When do we play games again?
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Jul 18, 2024 8:38:26 GMT -5
2 weeks ago I was talking about Darwin Baldwin from Atlanta in a Bellinger trade. Since then Baldwin has gone on a tear, including a HR in the Futures game. I doubt the Cubs can snag him for Belly now.
PS: This was when it looked like the Cubs should be sellers. They may still be, we'll see.
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Post by cfin on Jul 18, 2024 10:04:21 GMT -5
For me, the catching situation is the lowest priority. Yes it needs some improvement, but if the thinking is "our offense would be fine if we got more from our catcher" then your blinded by other problems in the offense.
I really don't like getting a lot of offense from the catching position. Doesn't mean I want it to be an automatic out. But if you depend too much on offense from your catcher then you have offensive problems when that catcher has a day off (and the catching position is the most physically demanding defensive position). They also tend to take a beating with foul balls which has to affect their offense.
I'm definitely not opposed to going after a catcher, I just don't think it should be a primary concern. That doesn't mean that you don't make a deal for a catcher until all other issues have been resolved, you take what you can get when it's available. Catching is just not a primary concern for me.
If I had to rank the Cubs needs going into the trade deadline, I'd rank them as:
1) Third base ... 2) Outfield Offense 3) Optional relief arms 4) Catcher
Third base is by and large the biggest need for this team, but as others have said and as I've found with my own research... there's not a lot out there.
This brings me back to the point of moving Happ to 3B to improve the offense in the outfield. This would serve to effectively "solve" the 3rd base problem. You effectively get the needed offense jolt, except it's coming from LF instead of 3B. Whether you solve this internally (Canario, Caissie) or externally that I don't know. I do think it would be a shame to give up on Canario without giving him a fair shake. But for whatever reason the organization doesn't seem to be very high on him.
This goes without saying that Bellinger is traded for... something. Bellinger is superfluous. The whole signing of Bellinger was a head scratcher to me. Now if Bellinger had hit like he did last year, then maybe he stays in CF. While he is hitting a little bit better than PCA, it's not enough to justify not playing PCA when PCA is looked at as a mainstay on your roster for years to come (you can debate whether or not that will be true or not).
Morel for me really isn't hitting enough to justify being in the lineup everyday. But if he must be in the lineup everyday, then stick him in the DH spot and see if he can regain his hitting stroke. If he doesn't then you look at replacing him in the offseason. I do like the idea of a more permanent DH, rather than a rotating player set. I think it gives everybody a more defined role that they can be better adjusted to. That doesn't mean that a fielding player never DHs. Just that if you're deemed to be the team's RF, then you're in RF practically everyday.
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Post by rvn11 on Jul 18, 2024 10:13:54 GMT -5
Could Logan O’Hoppe be a possible trade target out of Anaheim? He doesn’t seem like the type of player a shit rebuilding team would give up but they are also in bad shape with their roster both in the majors and minors alike. FanGraphs has them as the 30th ranked farm in the game. Age: 24 Free agent: 2029 Catcher .276/.328/.472/.800, 14 home runs in just 290 plate appearances I’ve never seen him play but he’s regarded as a bat first catcher with average plus defensive abilities. Perhaps a hefty package of young minor league talent to restock their farm and future? Just blathering. When do we play games again? I don't know much about him as a player, but I wouldn't be against it. The only question I have is why would LA make such a move? He's performing at the plate, controlled for 5 more years and will be cheap for a while, that's everything a rebuilding team wants. They might have to give up a lot to make that happen, and I don't know that he's the type of player to do that for.
I was thinking of getting creative and trying to take some payroll off their hands to offset the cost a little bit, but all they really have is Trout and Rendon, and taking on Rendon isn't good for anybody.
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Post by kfidd on Jul 19, 2024 7:24:09 GMT -5
Another random one. Last deadline we know the Cubs checked in on Bichette, presumably for third base. Could they do so again? He has been AWFUL this season but perhaps some encouraging thought that a change of scenery could be all he needs. I don’t know but with 1.5 years of control remaining you’d at least have the change of scenery plus the free agent contract year effects in play.
And again, I’m not necessarily advocating for it at this point, but we know we’ve been linked to Jansen multiple times now. Jed playing the value game again, not willing to sell with his job potentially on the line, needing the Cubs to win and show signs of life for a winning future. Jansen and Bichette, two all star veterans under 30 at positions of need (granted Bichette has never played third base in the majors).
I wouldn’t expect it to be cheap but also not expensive considering their underperformance. But possible.
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Post by zeke on Jul 19, 2024 10:14:43 GMT -5
Cub fan from Toronto here. I agree completely but the Jay's would ask for too many of our young prospects in return. Shapiro, like Hoyer is in the hot seat and trading both Bichette and Jensen would cause an uproar as they are fan favorites. Also,Jensen is not hitting and has injury issues. The Jays have had identical issues as the Cubs such as great starters and lousy relievers, weak hitting veterans etc.
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Post by kfidd on Jul 19, 2024 11:55:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I wouldn’t want to pony up much for an underperforming Bichette and also don’t think I’d want to just assume he can adequately play third base anyways. Considering the previous rumors I’d imagine Hoyer will check in on his availability if he hasn’t already but I don’t think Toronto would (or should) sell low on him regardless.
If I could paint my perfect deadline season I’d do it in three strokes:
- Bellinger returns and is traded for a can of used tennis balls - Build a trade with Seattle centered around Hoerner and Ford - Build a trade with Baltimore for one of Mayo or Westburg
Cubs secure everyday roles for PCA and Busch while keeping DH fluid by moving Bellinger and get what hopefully prove to be cornerstone players at third base and catcher. Hoerner is a price to pay but the position is immediately opened up for Shaw/Triantos to do battle for the opportunity at their natural position.
Fill the rest in the offseason.
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Post by stratos on Jul 21, 2024 12:42:07 GMT -5
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Post by stratos on Jul 21, 2024 12:44:20 GMT -5
For me, the catching situation is the lowest priority. Yes it needs some improvement, but if the thinking is "our offense would be fine if we got more from our catcher" then your blinded by other problems in the offense. I really don't like getting a lot of offense from the catching position. Doesn't mean I want it to be an automatic out. But if you depend too much on offense from your catcher then you have offensive problems when that catcher has a day off (and the catching position is the most physically demanding defensive position). They also tend to take a beating with foul balls which has to affect their offense. I'm definitely not opposed to going after a catcher, I just don't think it should be a primary concern. That doesn't mean that you don't make a deal for a catcher until all other issues have been resolved, you take what you can get when it's available. Catching is just not a primary concern for me. If I had to rank the Cubs needs going into the trade deadline, I'd rank them as: 1) Third base ... 2) Outfield Offense 3) Optional relief arms 4) Catcher
Our catchers suck badly. I think catching and 3B are at least equal concern. Followed by a pen arm(s).
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Post by kfidd on Jul 21, 2024 13:02:55 GMT -5
The problem with viewing catcher as further down the totem pole of needs just because traditionally you don’t need your catcher to hit well is that it pigeon holes our roster construction and limits our options. Corner positions must slug. Middle positions must make contact and run well. If someone doesn’t fit that mould they must be jettisoned for a more traditional upgrade.
Players are more athletic than ever. I’d rather look at the lineup as a whole and identify the needs. For as much as some refuse to acknowledge it, Happ and Suzuki are above average contributors in this day and age. Does that mean we shouldn’t explore upgrades? No, but when they are producing at a reasonable rate yet other positions are contributing abysmally why do we become so laser focused on the corner outfield positions?
OPS by position
C: .509 1B: .796 2B: .690 3B: .668 SS: .612 RF: .754 CF: .631 LF: .786 DH: .752
Some nuance comes into play. Centerfield production for example has been rough but a chunk of that is from a struggling PCA navigating his rookie growing pains. I can live with that. Shortstop with Swanson has been a disaster and I’m not okay with that but he isn’t going anywhere so the focus there should be more on how to get him back to his normal self as opposed to how do we replace him.
But then I see that dreadful production from catcher. Third and second base which could both use some serious help and don’t have those roadblock contracts in place but also don’t have the justification of some super young developing rookie to weigh.
I just don’t understand the screaming over our corner outfield production considering where the rest of the team is at. Should we be expecting more from them? I say yes. But they also aren’t the problem and the reason the offense blows ch0nks.
For Pete’s sake, our catching tandem this season has been out produced by Tucker Barnhart before he was DFA’d by our Cubs last season. Think about that. The emphasis for what we wanted from the catcher position shifted to defense but they couldn’t have possibly meant that the offense being negative value could be deemed acceptable.
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Post by irishcubfan on Jul 21, 2024 13:26:15 GMT -5
The problem with viewing catcher as further down the totem pole of needs just because traditionally you don’t need your catcher to hit well is that it pigeon holes our roster construction and limits our options. Corner positions must slug. Middle positions must make contact and run well. If someone doesn’t fit that mould they must be jettisoned for a more traditional upgrade. Players are more athletic than ever. I’d rather look at the lineup as a whole and identify the needs. For as much as some refuse to acknowledge it, Happ and Suzuki are above average contributors in this day and age. Does that mean we shouldn’t explore upgrades? No, but when they are producing at a reasonable rate yet other positions are contributing abysmally why do we become so laser focused on the corner outfield positions? OPS by position C: .509 1B: .796 2B: .690 3B: .668 SS: .612 RF: .754 CF: .631 LF: .786 DH: .752 Some nuance comes into play. Centerfield production for example has been rough but a chunk of that is from a struggling PCA navigating his rookie growing pains. I can live with that. Shortstop with Swanson has been a disaster and I’m not okay with that but he isn’t going anywhere so the focus there should be more on how to get him back to his normal self as opposed to how do we replace him. But then I see that dreadful production from catcher. Third and second base which could both use some serious help and don’t have those roadblock contracts in place but also don’t have the justification of some super young developing rookie to weigh. I just don’t understand the screaming over our corner outfield production considering where the rest of the team is at. Should we be expecting more from them? I say yes. But they also aren’t the problem and the reason the offense blows ch0nks. For Pete’s sake, our catching tandem this season has been out produced by Tucker Barnhart before he was DFA’d by our Cubs last season. Think about that. The emphasis for what we wanted from the catcher position shifted to defense but they couldn’t have possibly meant that the offense being negative value could be deemed acceptable. Regarding Happ and Suzuki, I think it boils down to the thought that the Cubs strength in minor league system is OF or at least at the start of the year that was the thought and people just ran with that narrative. People think Caissie and Canario can outproduce at a fraction of the cost even though it is very likely they won't be as successful as either Happ or Suzuki long term. The nonsense that they are blocking anyone is fiction unless or until the prospects knock the doors down with performance. The Cubs need a difference maker next off-season, Soto or bust, which means bust as he is the only difference maker unless there is an unlikely trade. The Cubs as an org are in a bad spot, minimal appeal and boring. If they don't turn it around apathy will set in with Wrigley being the only allure.
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Post by stratos on Jul 21, 2024 13:57:35 GMT -5
They say he'll be fine at 3B to start his career so at least for the time being that works. Probably why Cam Smith was drafted. I get Jeimer Candelario comp vibes from Cam Smith, just not a switch hitter. I'll take it.
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Post by batman66 on Jul 21, 2024 16:22:55 GMT -5
MLBTraderumors says the Yankees and RedSox have checked in on Taillons availability. Neither have a young 3b the Cubs can use but Boston has a 22 year old catcher in AA Kyle Teel who is their #3 prospect that I wouldn't mind the Cubs getting.
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Post by okeecub on Jul 21, 2024 16:30:30 GMT -5
MLBTraderumors says the Yankees and RedSox have checked in on Taillons availability. Neither have a young 3b the Cubs can use but Boston has a 22 year old catcher in AA Kyle Teel who is their #3 prospect that I wouldn't mind the Cubs getting. it will probably take either a winning streak or losing streak for the Cubs to determine what to do at the deadline. Admittedly I have no idea what they should do, but I just hope they try something. My concern is that they play average ball up to deadline and end up doing little or nothing, wasting prospects on someone that makes little or no impact
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Post by batman66 on Jul 21, 2024 16:51:43 GMT -5
MLBTraderumors says the Yankees and RedSox have checked in on Taillons availability. Neither have a young 3b the Cubs can use but Boston has a 22 year old catcher in AA Kyle Teel who is their #3 prospect that I wouldn't mind the Cubs getting. it will probably take either a winning streak or losing streak for the Cubs to determine what to do at the deadline. Admittedly I have no idea what they should do, but I just hope they try something. My concern is that they play average ball up to deadline and end up doing little or nothing, wasting prospects on someone that makes little or no impact I don't want them to be sellers unless they can either get something decent for Bellinger so it unclogs the abundance of OF's they have and also frees up more salary room for the off season because he's not opting out unless he goes on a run like he did last season the second half. I think even with the season he's having he will have solid trade value simply because of who he is and the ability he has that if he gets hot he could really help a team. Or they get something that they can use in a position of need for the near future like 3B or C for Taillon . I'd like to see guys like Tauchman traded , he should have moderate value and it would also open up more playing time for the younger guys . Not that I don't like him , I just don't like him getting playing time over prospects I'd like to see get a chance, Jed needs to pick a lane with this farm system he's proud of , use it for more than getting a good ranked system, either play them or trade them while they have some value. I don't want to see a deal like they made last season for any rentals that end up costing solid prospects and I'd like to see guys that are not part of the future here get moved like Wisdom, Mastrobouni etc to open up more playing time for some of the prospects.
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Post by okeecub on Jul 21, 2024 19:15:04 GMT -5
it will probably take either a winning streak or losing streak for the Cubs to determine what to do at the deadline. Admittedly I have no idea what they should do, but I just hope they try something. My concern is that they play average ball up to deadline and end up doing little or nothing, wasting prospects on someone that makes little or no impact I don't want them to be sellers unless they can either get something decent for Bellinger so it unclogs the abundance of OF's they have and also frees up more salary room for the off season because he's not opting out unless he goes on a run like he did last season the second half. I think even with the season he's having he will have solid trade value simply because of who he is and the ability he has that if he gets hot he could really help a team. Or they get something that they can use in a position of need for the near future like 3B or C for Taillon . I'd like to see guys like Tauchman traded , he should have moderate value and it would also open up more playing time for the younger guys . Not that I don't like him , I just don't like him getting playing time over prospects I'd like to see get a chance, Jed needs to pick a lane with this farm system he's proud of , use it for more than getting a good ranked system, either play them or trade them while they have some value. I don't want to see a deal like they made last season for any rentals that end up costing solid prospects and I'd like to see guys that are not part of the future here get moved like Wisdom, Mastrobouni etc to open up more playing time for some of the prospects. absolutely no short term rentals, first off I don’t see any 1or2 out there that can make a major impact. Again I don’t know what they should do some say bring up the kids but other than Shaw most of the prospects we think can make a difference are outfielders blocked by guys with NTCs and a couple of them are actually our best producers currently. We have brought up some young guys that haven’t really set the world on fire, granted with limited opportunities
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