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Post by lajoiesghost on Nov 7, 2023 10:28:21 GMT -5
Willson Contreras said "about time" Damn dude, ok Wow, apparently Willson isn't a big Rossy fan? I wonder if it is from his playing days or as a manager? Part of me really wants to know the story there and part of me wants to say "What do you care, Willy? Not your team anymore so we don't care what you think."
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 10:41:13 GMT -5
And you don't pay him well over double what any manager makes and then go on and do little this winter in free agency and trades. I previously had zero hope for Ohtani or a big trade like Soto but now even though I'm trying not to let myself get sucked in to the possibilty, it's hard not too. The Cubs mean business and they just threw around the money and shocked the baseball world. This was originally my thought as well - and I still think they will spend some money in free agency because of bringing Counsell in - but I also have to wonder if Counsell was brought in to try and get more out of Mervis and Canario.
Most everybody on this board thought Mervis didn't get a fair shake when he was brought up. I argued that he didn't really show a lot when he was playing. But perhaps Counsell can bring out the talent that Mervis showed in the minors.
Canario I was a bit more impressed with, but he also didn't get a lot of playing time. But I also sort of kind of agree with Ross's management of him. They were in the middle of a pennant race and couldn't really focus on developing player. Still... I probably would have given him another start after the grand slam game, if he had an 0fer then you might bench him.
Councell was brought in because flat out he's one of the best managers in the game in many aspects. I'm not so sure Mervis is even going to get another chance with the Cubs. Last season as they were growing as a team would have been the time to go through growing pains with him and now that they are a legit probable favorite to win the division or atleast be a solid contender for it , I'm not so sure they want to go into 2024 with a question mark surrounding 1b and just have a fallback veteran backup plan. I think they really want either Bellinger or Alonso to be the 1B next season , but the projected Bellinger contracts are scaring me , 12 years ? Sorry I love Belli , but I'm not so sure I'd be fully on board committing 12 years to him. Canario , I understood the reasoning behind him not getting starts because his history in the minors does show he initially struggles at new levels for a week or two before he takes off and the Cubs were trying to win every game they could . But yes, after that grand slam game, there was NO reason not to try to ride that out and atleast give him another start the next day. And to a point I understood the notion that he wanted to go with the guys that got them there , but when you have better possible options, you put winning over respect of the player as Jed just showed us with this move. My other problem with Ross was that he became WAY WAY too fixated with the righty/lefty thing and pinch hitting for guys in the 3rd inning of games after pitching changes when the other team could counter back an inning later with another pitching chance was baffling to me , and he started to constantly do it and it wasn't like some of these guys could not hit against lefties or righties.
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 10:44:15 GMT -5
Willson Contreras said "about time" Damn dude, ok Wow, apparently Willson isn't a big Rossy fan? I wonder if it is from his playing days or as a manager? Part of me really wants to know the story there and part of me wants to say "What do you care, Willy? Not your team anymore so we don't care what you think." Probably from both his playing and managing days and he probably blames Ross or partly does for the Cubs not being interested in keeping him around. I don't really care or want to know , Willy is Willy and he's been tainting my memory of him with his comments since he's left , but on the other hand I can understand his bitterness, but why not just take the high road?
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Post by rvn11 on Nov 7, 2023 10:47:29 GMT -5
Wow, apparently Willson isn't a big Rossy fan? I wonder if it is from his playing days or as a manager? Part of me really wants to know the story there and part of me wants to say "What do you care, Willy? Not your team anymore so we don't care what you think." Probably from both his playing and managing days and he probably blames Ross or partly does for the Cubs not being interested in keeping him around. I don't really care or want to know , Willy is Willy and he's been tainting my memory of him with his comments since he's left , but on the other hand I can understand his bitterness, but why not just take the high road? Issues between Contreras and Ross (and perhaps others) were hinted at for a while. But the fact he chose to comment gives a little insight into what many of us assumed of him for a while, he's got a bit of an abrasive personality that may or may not be easy to deal with. His first season in StL proved not much different.
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Post by 2mileshighillini on Nov 7, 2023 11:52:43 GMT -5
Issues between Contreras and Ross (and perhaps others) were hinted at for a while. But the fact he chose to comment gives a little insight into what many of us assumed of him for a while, he's got a bit of an abrasive personality that may or may not be easy to deal with. His first season in StL proved not much different. Thank-you We're talking about a guy who almost got into it, in the dugout, with... Anthony Rizzo! (of all people) "Everybody in that dugout needs to play like Javy and ME".
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Post by Clark Street on Nov 7, 2023 14:10:21 GMT -5
I always liked Counsell as a manager, but never expected him to join the Cubs. Now that he has, I welcome him with open arms. Ross's tenure with the Cubs should be appreciated by fans as both as player and manager. But I became concerned with some of his recent game day decisions. Spending big bucks for a new manager may imply much activity regarding player acquisitions and promotions before spring training. That may have been part of the deal that convinced Counsell to manage the Cubs. I always hated him , the same way I hated Dennis Rodman , Bob Probert , Jim Edmonds etc it was because they were too good against my Chicago teams but I'm thrilled he's the new manager. It may have been Counsell's large nose that made me sympathetic to him, since it's similar to mine.
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Post by fine09 on Nov 7, 2023 14:17:07 GMT -5
This was originally my thought as well - and I still think they will spend some money in free agency because of bringing Counsell in - but I also have to wonder if Counsell was brought in to try and get more out of Mervis and Canario.
Most everybody on this board thought Mervis didn't get a fair shake when he was brought up. I argued that he didn't really show a lot when he was playing. But perhaps Counsell can bring out the talent that Mervis showed in the minors.
Canario I was a bit more impressed with, but he also didn't get a lot of playing time. But I also sort of kind of agree with Ross's management of him. They were in the middle of a pennant race and couldn't really focus on developing player. Still... I probably would have given him another start after the grand slam game, if he had an 0fer then you might bench him.
Councell was brought in because flat out he's one of the best managers in the game in many aspects. I'm not so sure Mervis is even going to get another chance with the Cubs. Last season as they were growing as a team would have been the time to go through growing pains with him and now that they are a legit probable favorite to win the division or atleast be a solid contender for it , I'm not so sure they want to go into 2024 with a question mark surrounding 1b and just have a fallback veteran backup plan. I think they really want either Bellinger or Alonso to be the 1B next season , but the projected Bellinger contracts are scaring me , 12 years ? Sorry I love Belli , but I'm not so sure I'd be fully on board committing 12 years to him. Canario , I understood the reasoning behind him not getting starts because his history in the minors does show he initially struggles at new levels for a week or two before he takes off and the Cubs were trying to win every game they could . But yes, after that grand slam game, there was NO reason not to try to ride that out and atleast give him another start the next day. And to a point I understood the notion that he wanted to go with the guys that got them there , but when you have better possible options, you put winning over respect of the player as Jed just showed us with this move. My other problem with Ross was that he became WAY WAY too fixated with the righty/lefty thing and pinch hitting for guys in the 3rd inning of games after pitching changes when the other team could counter back an inning later with another pitching chance was baffling to me , and he started to constantly do it and it wasn't like some of these guys could not hit against lefties or righties. You and I are 180 apart on why I think they brought in Council. I believe it is two fold. 1. They nab one of the best managers in MLB & one that has never had to find success with hired guns from the outside, he has found success with very talented youngsters for the most part & especially with starting pitching. 2. They now pair his skills with good youngsters with an extra 70 to 90 million per year for free agents & trades but I bet we don't see them buy any guys that get paid after their prime - but I also don't think they bring back Bellinger either & after re-reading 2-miles post with the links on Bellingers metrics once again that really scares me & I am guessing it will do the same to a guy like Council who is really into the underlying metrics. I do see the youngsters getting substantially more chances to play under Council that with Rossy. Now Soto & Ohtani are a different story but Council knows that there will be a huge chance that they only get Soto for 1 year only & I don't think he will want to give up the top kid that it will take for that very slim chance at the Cubs re-signing him.. Ohtani is the Unicorn & I guess there is a chance with the Council hiring that they sign him but honestly I have no idea & as with everything else I am spewing here I could be completely wrong. And just how in the hell does Alonso hit 54 points less in batting average & 44 points less in OBP in 2023 the first year of the shift as opposed to 2022? Wouldn't that help him like it did almost every other big pull hitter? Well, didn't help Schwarbs either so I answered my own question I think.
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Post by fine09 on Nov 7, 2023 14:21:39 GMT -5
Wow, apparently Willson isn't a big Rossy fan? I wonder if it is from his playing days or as a manager? Part of me really wants to know the story there and part of me wants to say "What do you care, Willy? Not your team anymore so we don't care what you think." Probably from both his playing and managing days and he probably blames Ross or partly does for the Cubs not being interested in keeping him around. I don't really care or want to know , Willy is Willy and he's been tainting my memory of him with his comments since he's left , but on the other hand I can understand his bitterness, but why not just take the high road? I think Rossy sat Willson down & said "Willy, you are a hard nosed hustling ball player but you really aren't a very good catcher & we aren't going to have you back for 2023. It's not personal, it's just time to move on.. Willy being an ultra emotional guy took offense to that which is completely understandable - but so was where Rossy was coming from. As soon as I found out he was going to the Cardinals I assumed the war with words would start. You hurt his feelings & you are going to hear about it. That's just the way he is & that's ok, he's consistent.
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 14:35:43 GMT -5
Councell was brought in because flat out he's one of the best managers in the game in many aspects. I'm not so sure Mervis is even going to get another chance with the Cubs. Last season as they were growing as a team would have been the time to go through growing pains with him and now that they are a legit probable favorite to win the division or atleast be a solid contender for it , I'm not so sure they want to go into 2024 with a question mark surrounding 1b and just have a fallback veteran backup plan. I think they really want either Bellinger or Alonso to be the 1B next season , but the projected Bellinger contracts are scaring me , 12 years ? Sorry I love Belli , but I'm not so sure I'd be fully on board committing 12 years to him. Canario , I understood the reasoning behind him not getting starts because his history in the minors does show he initially struggles at new levels for a week or two before he takes off and the Cubs were trying to win every game they could . But yes, after that grand slam game, there was NO reason not to try to ride that out and atleast give him another start the next day. And to a point I understood the notion that he wanted to go with the guys that got them there , but when you have better possible options, you put winning over respect of the player as Jed just showed us with this move. My other problem with Ross was that he became WAY WAY too fixated with the righty/lefty thing and pinch hitting for guys in the 3rd inning of games after pitching changes when the other team could counter back an inning later with another pitching chance was baffling to me , and he started to constantly do it and it wasn't like some of these guys could not hit against lefties or righties. You and I are 180 apart on why I think they brought in Council. I believe it is two fold. 1. They nab one of the best managers in MLB & one that has never had to find success with hired guns from the outside, he has found success with very talented youngsters for the most part & especially with starting pitching. 2. They now pair his skills with good youngsters with an extra 70 to 90 million per year for free agents & trades but I bet we don't see them buy any guys that get paid after their prime - but I also don't think they bring back Bellinger either & after re-reading 2-miles post with the links on Bellingers metrics once again that really scares me & I am guessing it will do the same to a guy like Council who is really into the underlying metrics. I do see the youngsters getting substantially more chances to play under Council that with Rossy. Now Soto & Ohtani are a different story but Council knows that there will be a huge chance that they only get Soto for 1 year only & I don't think he will want to give up the top kid that it will take for that very slim chance at the Cubs re-signing him.. Ohtani is the Unicorn & I guess there is a chance with the Council hiring that they sign him but honestly I have no idea & as with everything else I am spewing here I could be completely wrong. And just how in the hell does Alonso hit 54 points less in batting average & 44 points less in OBP in 2023 the first year of the shift as opposed to 2022? Wouldn't that help him like it did almost every other big pull hitter? Well, didn't help Schwarbs either so I answered my own question I think. I think you misunderstood me , or maybe as I can often do , I didn't phrase things right. I think you are spot on with point 1 and also point 2 , but all that is wrapped up in Counsell being as good of a manager as he is in many aspects. Seems to be excellent at managing a pitching staff and will also give young players a chance and he can afford to , he's got a 5 year deal so he doesn't have to worry about job security ( well with the Cubs you never know) . I was just saying I think the Cubs might make the big shocker type free agent move or trade that I was doubting they would because regardless of how they feel about their own prospects , you lose Bellinger you're taking a leap backwards and no kid from the system will replace his bat in 2024 , so they need an impact bat and need it now , no matter how much I hype these kids they are going to still need to probably go outside the organization to get a middle of the order bat. Can't bank on a Canario to be that guy , yet, maybe give him 2-3 years and he could , but not now. Alonso , don't know what happened , maybe too much pressure on him to carry a team that was supposed to win 110 games and he became an all or nothing bat. Schwarber swings for the fences 99% of the time, so the shift didn't mean shit to him. I still think Alonso would bounce back to being a decent average hitter like his career .250
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 14:41:19 GMT -5
Probably from both his playing and managing days and he probably blames Ross or partly does for the Cubs not being interested in keeping him around. I don't really care or want to know , Willy is Willy and he's been tainting my memory of him with his comments since he's left , but on the other hand I can understand his bitterness, but why not just take the high road? I think Rossy sat Willson down & said "Willy, you are a hard nosed hustling ball player but you really aren't a very good catcher & we aren't going to have you back for 2023. It's not personal, it's just time to move on.. Willy being an ultra emotional guy took offense to that which is completely understandable - but so was where Rossy was coming from. As soon as I found out he was going to the Cardinals I assumed the war with words would start. You hurt his feelings & you are going to hear about it. That's just the way he is & that's ok, he's consistent. like I said , I get Willy's side of it and can understand the bitterness but now as an opposing player his act is getting old already with me and I wish he'd just stay quiet because I really still am trying to like the guy , but he's making it harder with comments like that. His actions are no real surprise, he's outgoing and emotional and I think was just a bit too much that way for the Cubs liking. I think the him and Javy comment probably was a real turning point in how they felt about him and like I mentioned often , it's also no real mystery why a lot of pitchers seemed to want to work with whoever was the other catcher the Cubs had ........because we quickly also found that out in STL. Willy seems to want to play the villian now , that's ok , like I said although I understand it , I'm getting tired of it.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Nov 7, 2023 14:47:30 GMT -5
If anyone understands the importance of a strong bullpen, it's Counsell. When his signing was announced, the first thing I thought about was a Counsell-Hader reunion.
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 15:05:47 GMT -5
If anyone understands the importance of a strong bullpen, it's Counsell. When his signing was announced, the first thing I thought about was a Counsell-Hader reunion. I'd love the Cubs to make that happen , but I don't think they are going to spend that much on a closer. It would sure make putting together the pen a lot easier though and they would not have to potentially waste 2-3-4 million a year each on some other potential pen pieces. Sign Hader and then they can probably ride with what they have instead of signing a couple of few guys you hope they can pull a good year out of their ass.
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Post by holycow23 on Nov 7, 2023 15:09:53 GMT -5
If Alonso is put on the trade market what are the odds now that they would deal him to the cubs. Im starting to warm up to the Hoskins option. But would need to also add a lefty bat if Belly doesnt resign.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Nov 7, 2023 15:14:11 GMT -5
I think Rossy sat Willson down & said "Willy, you are a hard nosed hustling ball player but you really aren't a very good catcher & we aren't going to have you back for 2023. It's not personal, it's just time to move on.. Willy being an ultra emotional guy took offense to that which is completely understandable - but so was where Rossy was coming from. As soon as I found out he was going to the Cardinals I assumed the war with words would start. You hurt his feelings & you are going to hear about it. That's just the way he is & that's ok, he's consistent. like I said , I get Willy's side of it and can understand the bitterness but now as an opposing player his act is getting old already with me and I wish he'd just stay quiet because I really still am trying to like the guy , but he's making it harder with comments like that. His actions are no real surprise, he's outgoing and emotional and I think was just a bit too much that way for the Cubs liking. I think the him and Javy comment probably was a real turning point in how they felt about him and like I mentioned often , it's also no real mystery why a lot of pitchers seemed to want to work with whoever was the other catcher the Cubs had ........because we quickly also found that out in STL. Willy seems to want to play the villian now , that's ok , like I said although I understand it , I'm getting tired of it. After the 2016 World Series, Ross became the toast of the town and I don't think he handled it very well. I believe he became the victim of an over-inflated ego.
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 15:22:36 GMT -5
If Alonso is put on the trade market what are the odds now that they would deal him to the cubs. Im starting to warm up to the Hoskins option. But would need to also add a lefty bat if Belly doesnt resign. Well here is another twist , the other team who tried to trade for him at the deadline was the Brewers and their GM now works for the Mets and their manager for the Cubs and I'm sure Stearns consulted with Counsell about it so I would imagine Counsell is a fan ? Also reading some stuff that Stearns and Counsell didn't always see eye to eye expecially since the Hader trade and failure to obtain more help at deadlines.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Nov 7, 2023 15:28:03 GMT -5
If anyone understands the importance of a strong bullpen, it's Counsell. When his signing was announced, the first thing I thought about was a Counsell-Hader reunion. I'd love the Cubs to make that happen , but I don't think they are going to spend that much on a closer. It would sure make putting together the pen a lot easier though and they would not have to potentially waste 2-3-4 million a year each on some other potential pen pieces. Sign Hader and then they can probably ride with what they have instead of signing a couple of few guys you hope they can pull a good year out of their ass. When you look at available closers, Hader is younger than most. The Cubs did give Kimbrel a sizable contract a few years back so they have done it before.
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Post by fine09 on Nov 7, 2023 15:34:32 GMT -5
You and I are 180 apart on why I think they brought in Council. I believe it is two fold. 1. They nab one of the best managers in MLB & one that has never had to find success with hired guns from the outside, he has found success with very talented youngsters for the most part & especially with starting pitching. 2. They now pair his skills with good youngsters with an extra 70 to 90 million per year for free agents & trades but I bet we don't see them buy any guys that get paid after their prime - but I also don't think they bring back Bellinger either & after re-reading 2-miles post with the links on Bellingers metrics once again that really scares me & I am guessing it will do the same to a guy like Council who is really into the underlying metrics. I do see the youngsters getting substantially more chances to play under Council that with Rossy. Now Soto & Ohtani are a different story but Council knows that there will be a huge chance that they only get Soto for 1 year only & I don't think he will want to give up the top kid that it will take for that very slim chance at the Cubs re-signing him.. Ohtani is the Unicorn & I guess there is a chance with the Council hiring that they sign him but honestly I have no idea & as with everything else I am spewing here I could be completely wrong. And just how in the hell does Alonso hit 54 points less in batting average & 44 points less in OBP in 2023 the first year of the shift as opposed to 2022? Wouldn't that help him like it did almost every other big pull hitter? Well, didn't help Schwarbs either so I answered my own question I think. I think you misunderstood me , or maybe as I can often do , I didn't phrase things right. I think you are spot on with point 1 and also point 2 , but all that is wrapped up in Counsell being as good of a manager as he is in many aspects. Seems to be excellent at managing a pitching staff and will also give young players a chance and he can afford to , he's got a 5 year deal so he doesn't have to worry about job security ( well with the Cubs you never know) . I was just saying I think the Cubs might make the big shocker type free agent move or trade that I was doubting they would because regardless of how they feel about their own prospects , you lose Bellinger you're taking a leap backwards and no kid from the system will replace his bat in 2024 , so they need an impact bat and need it now , no matter how much I hype these kids they are going to still need to probably go outside the organization to get a middle of the order bat. Can't bank on a Canario to be that guy , yet, maybe give him 2-3 years and he could , but not now. Alonso , don't know what happened , maybe too much pressure on him to carry a team that was supposed to win 110 games and he became an all or nothing bat. Schwarber swings for the fences 99% of the time, so the shift didn't mean shit to him. I still think Alonso would bounce back to being a decent average hitter like his career .250 Oh I started my comment correctly on the youngsters being in high regard with him & wandered from there so it wasn't me misunderstanding you, it was me getting different ideas 1/2 way through. Happens a lot.. If I thought Alonso could go back to hitting .250 I'd warm up to that trade & his 150 OPS+ that would come with it. I really don't think they go after Belli now & if you look hard at that first link in 2-miles post that I bumped up onto page 29 here "Theanlyst" it is a pretty scary read when they compare Belli to every other great hitter - it's not even close.. Well, that and the 12 year - 1/4 billion that he/they want.. I think they do give Mervis another extended shot along with Canario because "IF" they can get one of those two along with PCA to really contribute this year & moving forward there are our 2 new all stars that cost you a total of 1.5 million a year for the next few which frees up the $250,000,000 per year to fill out the team and THAT team should be able to compete for our 2nd. & 3rd. WS title..
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Post by fine09 on Nov 7, 2023 15:45:25 GMT -5
I'd love the Cubs to make that happen , but I don't think they are going to spend that much on a closer. It would sure make putting together the pen a lot easier though and they would not have to potentially waste 2-3-4 million a year each on some other potential pen pieces. Sign Hader and then they can probably ride with what they have instead of signing a couple of few guys you hope they can pull a good year out of their ass. When you look at available closers, Hader is younger than most. The Cubs did give Kimbrel a sizable contract a few years back so they have done it before. Hader only converted a tick under 85% of his save opportunities last year which might be why his WAR is not too high this year. I don't know, 20 mil per x 5 or 6 years would really suck if he loses it AND we lose our 2nd. round draft pick.
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 15:47:58 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood me , or maybe as I can often do , I didn't phrase things right. I think you are spot on with point 1 and also point 2 , but all that is wrapped up in Counsell being as good of a manager as he is in many aspects. Seems to be excellent at managing a pitching staff and will also give young players a chance and he can afford to , he's got a 5 year deal so he doesn't have to worry about job security ( well with the Cubs you never know) . I was just saying I think the Cubs might make the big shocker type free agent move or trade that I was doubting they would because regardless of how they feel about their own prospects , you lose Bellinger you're taking a leap backwards and no kid from the system will replace his bat in 2024 , so they need an impact bat and need it now , no matter how much I hype these kids they are going to still need to probably go outside the organization to get a middle of the order bat. Can't bank on a Canario to be that guy , yet, maybe give him 2-3 years and he could , but not now. Alonso , don't know what happened , maybe too much pressure on him to carry a team that was supposed to win 110 games and he became an all or nothing bat. Schwarber swings for the fences 99% of the time, so the shift didn't mean shit to him. I still think Alonso would bounce back to being a decent average hitter like his career .250 Oh I started my comment correctly on the youngsters being in high regard with him & wandered from there so it wasn't me misunderstanding you, it was me getting different ideas 1/2 way through. Happens a lot.. If I thought Alonso could go back to hitting .250 I'd warm up to that trade & his 150 OPS+ that would come with it. I really don't think they go after Belli now & if you look hard at that first link in 2-miles post that I bumped up onto page 29 here "Theanlyst" it is a pretty scary read when they compare Belli to every other great hitter - it's not even close.. Well, that and the 12 year - 1/4 billion that he/they want.. I think they do give Mervis another extended shot along with Canario because "IF" they can get one of those two along with PCA to really contribute this year & moving forward there are our 2 new all stars that cost you a total of 1.5 million a year for the next few which frees up the $250,000,000 per year to fill out the team and THAT team should be able to compete for our 2nd. & 3rd. WS title.. I've said this before , regarding Bellinger and what some say are red flags over hard hit rate , exit velocity and him being "lucky" as a hitter in 2023 and mentioning he got better because of the banning of the shift etc . People who are saying this more than likely are looking at stat cast numbers etc and didn't watch his at bats and the shift is still banned so I don't even know the point of bringing that up. The guy a lot of times hit balls where it looked like he almost places it in a hole , he wasn't swinging to drive it over or off the wall , he was trying to just get a hit and vut down on his swing and poked balls into play , not on accident or thats all he could do , but on purpose, and that's going to affect hhr and ev numbers you see on a spread sheet. If they can't sign Belli then I could MAYBE see them give Mervis another shot and that's only if they also sign a guy like Turner who could play there everyday if Mervis struggles. I'd love to see Mervis get the chance , I just have my doubts he does.
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Post by batman66 on Nov 7, 2023 16:37:22 GMT -5
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