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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 6, 2024 14:29:08 GMT -5
Again, Carrol was the 16th pick and Volpe was the 30th pick (Busch 31). Gunnar Henderson was the 42nd pick in that draft. What are we talking about here? You keep going back to picks 1 and 2.
"But look at the big picture, the one you don't seem to agree with or really get , and that's fine, your opinion. But it's been about 2024 and beyond, not just winning in 2024 and developing a core who can have sustained success."
Really? Because in the contender thread the Cubs are contenders NOW, right?
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Post by irishcubfan on Feb 6, 2024 14:29:54 GMT -5
I for sure want him over Hosmer, Mancini, Mervis. The first two had almost zero chance of success and I am guessing they were signed to appease the former manager. Nothing wrong with giving him an opportunity as there are not many options out there. Bellinger could be a fit/fall back but I am guessing he prefers CF. Hoskins may have been a decent DH but who knows with his injury recovery? Would you want Brandon Belt over Busch? I liked the move of trading for Busch, if his bat is as good as reports say it was well worth it. I agree with that regarding 1B as well, again, those were "cheap" options. I don't mind the Busch trade, I just don't think I like the reason why the made it. My issue is going to be that the Cubs may be relying on 3 prospects/young players to fill CF, 3B and 1B if they don't sign anyone else. That's a tall order for those players for an 83 win team that was ready to take another step forward. Guessing Bellinger will be signed along with Urshela. Think the only young/unproven player will be Busch.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 6, 2024 14:43:25 GMT -5
Again, Carrol was the 16th pick and Volpe was the 30th pick (Busch 31). Gunnar Henderson was the 42nd pick in that draft. What are we talking about here? You keep going back to picks 1 and 2. "But look at the big picture, the one you don't seem to agree with or really get , and that's fine, your opinion. But it's been about 2024 and beyond, not just winning in 2024 and developing a core who can have sustained success." Really? Because in the contender thread the Cubs are contenders NOW, right? I mentioned the high end guys in regards to your comment. And because there is a difference with elite guys. <<We're really now going to do high end vs low end 1st round?>> Yes, others like Henderson ( again shitty team at the time who's building with youth ) got the opportunity. To stop the crap about high/low pick etc , again it's not like Busch struggled in the minors and thats what held him back , he'd probably already be playing in the majors if he was ina different organization. You don't want to open up your "contender" can of worms again do you? Sorry I don't want to go there, my head spins from your endless changing definition of what a contender is. I think it was pretty much looked at as 2024 and beyond , no ? Wasn't that when we expected the flow of prospects to really start coming , 2023 was a transition year in which they started to take steps towards ............ I'm afraid to use the word ........ and they did . So here we are in 2024 , and unless they sign Bellinger , I'm not feeling they've kept stepping forward , I think they may have stumbled back a little if they don't. But people seem to be forgetting that they could have possibly made one of the better moves of the entire off season and that was hiring Counsell.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 6, 2024 14:59:08 GMT -5
I agree with that regarding 1B as well, again, those were "cheap" options. I don't mind the Busch trade, I just don't think I like the reason why the made it. My issue is going to be that the Cubs may be relying on 3 prospects/young players to fill CF, 3B and 1B if they don't sign anyone else. That's a tall order for those players for an 83 win team that was ready to take another step forward. Guessing Bellinger will be signed along with Urshela. Think the only young/unproven player will be Busch. No thanks on Urshela , I'd rather keep the 4 headed monster of Madrigl, Mastrobouni, Morel and Wisdom there.
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Post by irishcubfan on Feb 6, 2024 15:12:16 GMT -5
Guessing Bellinger will be signed along with Urshela. Think the only young/unproven player will be Busch. No thanks on Urshela , I'd rather keep the 4 headed monster of Madrigl, Mastrobouni, Morel and Wisdom there. Don't want either of them. Madrigal may be an impressive hitter in terms of contact percentage and average if MLB adopts ABS or he gets regular at bats. Would rather he get traded to a team that has regular or semi regular at bats available at 2b. May be a high average low impact hitter. Though would want him up at bat with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs versus many other hitters. Morel, I'm guessing they don't want to see him at 3b unless it is a break the fire extinguisher moment. If they had any thought he could handle 3b they would have stated so already. Don't believe the Cubs have their every day 3b on the roster yet.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 6, 2024 17:01:42 GMT -5
No thanks on Urshela , I'd rather keep the 4 headed monster of Madrigl, Mastrobouni, Morel and Wisdom there. Don't want either of them. Madrigal may be an impressive hitter in terms of contact percentage and average if MLB adopts ABS or he gets regular at bats. Would rather he get traded to a team that has regular or semi regular at bats available at 2b. May be a high average low impact hitter. Though would want him up at bat with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs versus many other hitters. Morel, I'm guessing they don't want to see him at 3b unless it is a break the fire extinguisher moment. If they had any thought he could handle 3b they would have stated so already. Don't believe the Cubs have their every day 3b on the roster yet. I'd prefer somebody there on a regular basis. But I'm ok with them going with what they have until Shaw is ready unless they can make a trade for a solid 3b . Madrigal if he can ever stay healthy and Mastrobouini are who I'd like to see split time there if they are not going to let Morel play 3b. People seem to dislike Mastro , and I did for a while, but ever since he got sent down to Iowa, he seemed to figure something out down there. He hit .295 with a .449 OBP and .921 OPS in 39 games in Iowa and then came back up and in 29 games the second half with the Cubs hit .309 with a .347 OBP and was playing a lot the last month and hit .333 in Sept. Not exactly exciting sluggers but I don't want them wasting money on somebody like Urshela.
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Post by Mike on Feb 7, 2024 12:05:42 GMT -5
To bring it back to Busch; I think a big indicator of our success offensively, is if we're relying on Busch as a cleanup hitter or gaining MLB at bats in the 6-hole (this assumes the lefties are split in the lineup like Counsell said he likes to do...a.e., 2 Happ / 4 Bellinger / 6 Busch /
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Post by irishcubfan on Feb 7, 2024 13:41:17 GMT -5
To bring it back to Busch; I think a big indicator of our success offensively, is if we're relying on Busch as a cleanup hitter or gaining MLB at bats in the 6-hole (this assumes the lefties are split in the lineup like Counsell said he likes to do...a.e., 2 Happ / 4 Bellinger / 6 Busch / Hoerner, Happ, Suzuki, Bellinger, Swanson, Busch, Morel, Gomes/Amaya, Madrigal (if 3b is not signed) seems like the likeliest lineup to me against a right hander. Flip Wisdom and the catching tandem when/if Wisdom is starting at 3b.
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Post by Czarcastic on Feb 21, 2024 17:52:11 GMT -5
To bring it back to Busch; I think a big indicator of our success offensively, is if we're relying on Busch as a cleanup hitter or gaining MLB at bats in the 6-hole (this assumes the lefties are split in the lineup like Counsell said he likes to do...a.e., 2 Happ / 4 Bellinger / 6 Busch / Hoerner, Happ, Suzuki, Bellinger, Swanson, Busch, Morel, Gomes/Amaya, Madrigal (if 3b is not signed) seems like the likeliest lineup to me against a right hander. Flip Wisdom and the catching tandem when/if Wisdom is starting at 3b. I hope that they announce lineups a little bit earlier than normal so I can make sure not to watch if Wisdom is in the lineup.
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Post by 2mileshighillini on Apr 16, 2024 9:08:57 GMT -5
Call me crazy. But I think we did all right with this trade. And it looks like the Board did all right with their assessments. Well, 90% of the Board.
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Post by lajoiesghost on Apr 16, 2024 9:13:23 GMT -5
Call me crazy. But I think we did all right with this trade. And it looks like the Board did all right with their assessments. Well, 90% of the Board. Honestly I was skeptical that it would turn out ok. Still am a little, just because Ferris could become a top notch pitcher. The true assessment can't be made for several years but I sure like what we are seeing so far.
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Post by batman66 on Apr 16, 2024 9:49:29 GMT -5
Call me crazy. But I think we did all right with this trade. And it looks like the Board did all right with their assessments. Well, 90% of the Board. Honestly I was skeptical that it would turn out ok. Still am a little, just because Ferris could become a top notch pitcher. The true assessment can't be made for several years but I sure like what we are seeing so far. Ferris probably will become a very good major league pitcher , but a lot can happen between now and when he makes the majors and during that time the Cubs have Busch producing to a MLB leading OPS , so I'm ok with it. Ferris so far this season has struggled with his command , very small sample size, 2 starts but 6.1 innings 6 hits 5 runs 7 strike outs 9 walks 2.368 whip 7.11 era
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Post by kfidd on Apr 16, 2024 9:52:22 GMT -5
Call me crazy. But I think we did all right with this trade. And it looks like the Board did all right with their assessments. Well, 90% of the Board. I was very excited when the trade was made but I care much less about prospects in A ball than many here. But even there, I think most people were on board with the trade, it just came with two caveats: 1) people were excited about Ferris so losing even a very distant prospect stung a bit (I blame the excellent work done by you, bat, joe, and so many others in the minor league thread for keeping us all so well informed on the minors stars) and 2) people didn’t want to accept that Bellinger might not return and the acquisition of Busch made that a real possibility Some will say we won’t know who won this trade until we know how Ferris fares several years from now but I disagree with that. The best trades are the ones where both teams win, and regardless of how Ferris’s career plays out if Busch can be a pillar for us at first for the future I’m good. The same can be said for the Dodgers, if Busch has a stellar season ahead that doesn’t mean they lost the trade. They dealt from a position of excess and won’t miss him. Long story short I’m glad Busch is a Cub. He’s a talented lefty bat at a position where we’ve been longing for stability since Rizzo was traded. If Morel can continue to steadily improve at third base the way he seems to be we could have our corner infield of the present and future locked up for a long time. The last time the Cubs got 1,000 innings from one player each at 3B and 1B in the same season? Bryzzo back in 2017(!).
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Post by batman66 on Apr 16, 2024 10:02:15 GMT -5
Call me crazy. But I think we did all right with this trade. And it looks like the Board did all right with their assessments. Well, 90% of the Board. In all fairness to Steve , his issue wasn't Busch as a player, it was him thinking at the time that the Cubs were looking at him as the guy they were going to rely on to take Bellingers spot as the main middle of the order lefty power hitter and that they were going cheap to fill that role. <<Again, the Cubs should not be handing power positions (1B) to players with zero MLB success and expect success, especially when the Cubs lack power in the middle of the order. This move seems "cheap". >> Or maybe they are shrewd for being able to fill a power position by only giving up a VERY good prospect and paying a guy league minimum , instead of by spending 25 million a year to do it. It was a gutsy move to trade a guy like Ferris, I'm sure they hated to do it. But top 50 ranked prospect hitters like Busch who don't have a lot of red flags as a hitter don't come up often for trade , so for them to pounce and land him had to be an exciting move for them , and so far it's paying off. Like I said before , i'm not worried about him as a hitter , he doesn't chase and he seems to know what a strike is , he's not going to be one of those AAAA type players that the league figures out who can't adjust. I'm sure the league will adjust to him at some point soon, I have confidence he will adjust back because he's very skilled at pitch recognition.
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Post by 2mileshighillini on Apr 16, 2024 10:25:52 GMT -5
Top 50 ranked prospect hitters like Busch who don't have a lot of red flags as a hitter don't come up often for trade I'm sure the league will adjust to him at some point soon, I have confidence he will adjust back because he's very skilled at pitch recognition. That's it. It's hard to exploit someone who doesn't chase your bullshit. And that means Pitchers have to come to him. And we've seen what happens when Busch gets his pitch. Those highlight HR's (in the first post) weren't "Flyballs that drifted over short porches". That approach, that swing and that bat speed weren't fool's gold. Some saw it. Some didn't. Since we're quoting: "Prospects with almost zero MLB experience do not just get thrust in as an every day starter. Busch should be rotating HEAVILY.← ← The Cubs should not be handing power positions (1B) to players with zero MLB success"
And don't forget: We won't be Contenders for 5-6 yrs, now. Finishing 1 game out of the Playoffs doesn't make us a contending team. This is just another year of hoping the prospects make a splash. Jed is nothing without Theo. Rickets is laughing at us. You guys are just apologist. I might forgive. But I won't forget.
Instead of throwing money at our problems and having a roster chalk full of Roger Dorns... The Cubs have a potential (.575+) Ballclub, with HIGHLY rated prospects, galore! The Cubs are replacing veterans, one prospect (with financial control) at a time. Pretty much, the ideal scenario. Now, imagine if we had done it the "other" way.
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Post by lajoiesghost on Apr 16, 2024 10:47:12 GMT -5
Skeptical or not, one thing I DID like was that it pushed an Alonso trade out of the picture. I was wholly against that idea. Nothing against Alonso as a player but it was rumored the Muts had a high asking price for 1 season of Pete. No thanks.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Apr 16, 2024 11:55:51 GMT -5
I love when people create their own agenda. Keep this same energy if Busch goes in to a slump (I hope he doesn't).
This is exactly what I said:
"To say you're not too worried at all about his bat is ridiculous. Busch is still a prospect who has concerns. Not to say he'll be a dud, but the Cubs seem to be relying on him to have every dat at bats. Again, like I said in another thread. I don't mind the addition of Busch, but I do not like what seems to be the reason they added him and that seems to be the every day 1B. We'll see, but again, more reliance on an unknown at the MLB level. Cubs shouldn't be operating this way."
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Post by kfidd on Apr 16, 2024 12:28:39 GMT -5
I love when people create their own agenda. Keep this same energy if Busch goes in to a slump (I hope he doesn't). This is exactly what I said: "To say you're not too worried at all about his bat is ridiculous. Busch is still a prospect who has concerns. Not to say he'll be a dud, but the Cubs seem to be relying on him to have every dat at bats. Again, like I said in another thread. I don't mind the addition of Busch, but I do not like what seems to be the reason they added him and that seems to be the every day 1B. We'll see, but again, more reliance on an unknown at the MLB level. Cubs shouldn't be operating this way." Sample sizes are important and you are absolutely right, there will be downs and slumps for him to navigate just like all players. But as fans we are really good at getting carried away with small sample sizes. Bellinger hit his first home run of the season on April 2nd and there were immediately posts saying “so much about concerns with his hard hit rate” and since has a hard hit below 27% and an OPS around .350. The Cubs offense as a whole was praised for its patience and relentless by all, yourself included, through the first 9 games of the season and has since shat the bed with everyone, myself included, bemoaning their complete ineptitude and abandoning of the fundamentals. Two weeks from now more scripts will flip. Hendricks could be on a three game win streak, Taillon might be back and looking abysmally dreadful and us wishing he was still on the IL, Hoerner hitting .400 while lighting up the stolen base department. This is the nature of early season baseball where the sample sizes are small. Go back to game threads through about April 21st of last season and witness all the glorification of Wisdom’s new swing and approach as he had 8 home runs and a .950 OPS at the time. Things change mighty fast early on. At least for me your concern over not Busch but rather that they might have pivoted from Bellinger was understood, but the circumstances surrounding Busch and why he was 26 years old without cementing himself at the big league level in the Dodgers organization was missed. He is a legitimate talent and hitter and has been since the day he was drafted. The Cubs are lucky to have him and having only cost a couple A ballers to make it happen, regardless of how impactful anyone thinks those A ballers might eventually become (a story that is more often than not tried and failed in the big leagues). I love that Busch is here and the fact they were able to secure Bellinger was icing on the cake (though perhaps better said in my opinion is he was the final ingredient in the cake mix while the icing, the pitching staff, was left undermixed). As a little extra, I was never over the moon with bringing Bellinger back without further improvement to the pitching staff (something they did not do), but I am at least glad they did not bring him back without another plan at first base, in my opinion far option for both the present and the future. CF Belli > 1B Belli is a much better reality for this team and organization and I’m optimistic it will pay big dividends. Bellinger will eventually heat up 🤞 and ride off into free agency once again while we’ve got Busch for the long haul and someone from the minors will emerge in centerfield.
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Post by 2mileshighillini on Apr 16, 2024 12:46:08 GMT -5
I love when people create their own agenda. You are the one with an agenda. "5-6 years of sucking"I simply pointed out (paraphrased) 7 other things you said, to push your agenda. ALL of which are now laughable. So now I'm laughing. And you wanna play "victim"? Lol. Reap it.
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Post by trav768 on Apr 16, 2024 14:01:11 GMT -5
Busch no doubt will go into a slump. all batters do. its how quickly he adjusts to pitchers once they figure him out. he will have hot streaks as well
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