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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 13, 2023 12:26:16 GMT -5
I can't say anything bad about the Cardinals. As a Bears fan, they remind me of the Packers. Just when you think they're going to take a step back they go and win 13 games (90 for Cards). It's like identical organizational rivals to the teams I love.
78 wins.... I mean, I don't think it's far off. The roster can win only 74 or it can win 84, so much unknown. What I do know though is that even with young guys, there are quite a few veterans this year added to the roster like Belly, Hosmer, Mancini, Barnhardt and of course Swanson. Last season it felt like the roster was just soooo young. Even though Heyward was a veteran, he wasn't offering anything offensively when he was playing. We'll see.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 13, 2023 16:33:52 GMT -5
I can't say anything bad about the Cardinals. As a Bears fan, they remind me of the Packers. Just when you think they're going to take a step back they go and win 13 games (90 for Cards). It's like identical organizational rivals to the teams I love. 78 wins.... I mean, I don't think it's far off. The roster can win only 74 or it can win 84, so much unknown. What I do know though is that even with young guys, there are quite a few veterans this year added to the roster like Belly, Hosmer, Mancini, Barnhardt and of course Swanson. Last season it felt like the roster was just soooo young. Even though Heyward was a veteran, he wasn't offering anything offensively when he was playing. We'll see. I'm not sure why , maybe I'm wrong in my feeling with this, but you seem to ignore pitching a lot when you judge the Cubs , even when it came to identifying core players, you never mentioned Hendricks. In the prospects you never mention the pitchers , in stuff like this, you just always seem to focus on the bats.
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Post by skokiejoe on Feb 14, 2023 12:04:40 GMT -5
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Post by bryzzobrist on Feb 14, 2023 13:57:17 GMT -5
We sure have a big payroll to get consistently projected as a <.500 team I'm seeing us as better than that.
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Post by jpepitone on Feb 14, 2023 14:06:59 GMT -5
On the bright side, at least they don’t have the Turds winning the division (losing out to the Brewers by .1 of a win). But they have the Cubs too low at 77 wins.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 14, 2023 15:43:26 GMT -5
We sure have a big payroll to get consistently projected as a <.500 team I'm seeing us as better than that.
Cubs won 74 last season , with the additions they made they've been mentioned in every single "most improved teams this off season" story that I've seen and these "projections" have them only winning 3 more games than they did last season. And I don't know what they see in the Brewers but I have the Cubs being better than they are now.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 15, 2023 9:01:33 GMT -5
I can't say anything bad about the Cardinals. As a Bears fan, they remind me of the Packers. Just when you think they're going to take a step back they go and win 13 games (90 for Cards). It's like identical organizational rivals to the teams I love. 78 wins.... I mean, I don't think it's far off. The roster can win only 74 or it can win 84, so much unknown. What I do know though is that even with young guys, there are quite a few veterans this year added to the roster like Belly, Hosmer, Mancini, Barnhardt and of course Swanson. Last season it felt like the roster was just soooo young. Even though Heyward was a veteran, he wasn't offering anything offensively when he was playing. We'll see. I'm not sure why , maybe I'm wrong in my feeling with this, but you seem to ignore pitching a lot when you judge the Cubs , even when it came to identifying core players, you never mentioned Hendricks. In the prospects you never mention the pitchers , in stuff like this, you just always seem to focus on the bats. I've explained this numerous times.... pitching, especially bullpen guys, are the most volatile players in baseball. Can have a 0.95 ERA one season and then 5.49 ERA the next. I like the Cubs pitching. I think it's top 10, but because it's so young I need to see it perform again. For me, winning in baseball, is all about offense. Mostly because pitchers don't stretch 7-8-9 inning that much anymore. You gotta score runs. So yes, for me, the success of the Cubs going forward hinges on offensive production.
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Post by TheChico on Feb 15, 2023 12:09:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure why , maybe I'm wrong in my feeling with this, but you seem to ignore pitching a lot when you judge the Cubs , even when it came to identifying core players, you never mentioned Hendricks. In the prospects you never mention the pitchers , in stuff like this, you just always seem to focus on the bats. I've explained this numerous times.... pitching, especially bullpen guys, are the most volatile players in baseball. Can have a 0.95 ERA one season and then 5.49 ERA the next. I like the Cubs pitching. I think it's top 10, but because it's so young I need to see it perform again. For me, winning in baseball, is all about offense. Mostly because pitchers don't stretch 7-8-9 inning that much anymore. You gotta score runs. So yes, for me, the success of the Cubs going forward hinges on offensive production. fair enough. The offense is the biggest question mark this year it will determine the Cubs success or the lack of it as I think the pitching and defense will keep the Cubs in most games.
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Post by fine09 on Feb 15, 2023 12:37:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure why , maybe I'm wrong in my feeling with this, but you seem to ignore pitching a lot when you judge the Cubs , even when it came to identifying core players, you never mentioned Hendricks. In the prospects you never mention the pitchers , in stuff like this, you just always seem to focus on the bats. I've explained this numerous times.... pitching, especially bullpen guys, are the most volatile players in baseball. Can have a 0.95 ERA one season and then 5.49 ERA the next. I like the Cubs pitching. I think it's top 10, but because it's so young I need to see it perform again. For me, winning in baseball, is all about offense. Mostly because pitchers don't stretch 7-8-9 inning that much anymore. You gotta score runs. So yes, for me, the success of the Cubs going forward hinges on offensive production. That is a fair point & one that is most likely shared by many, but wouldn't you agree that even though offense is the main driver of wins in your opinion that if you have a pitching staff that averages giving up 3-1/2 runs a game you will win more games than with a staff that averages 5 per game no matter how good your offense is? If it were mostly an offense driven game then the Cardinals should have kicked the crap out of everyone last year with the MVP in Goldy, Arenado who came in 3rd. & Edman who put up a 6.4 bWAR as well (22 bWAR between the 3) but as it turned out they won the exact same amount of playoff games as the Cubs did last year.. I remember very well because I enjoyed it too much to consider myself a good person. I'm working on it..
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Post by threeandone on Feb 15, 2023 17:16:00 GMT -5
Projected NL Standings: NL Central Cardinals 91-71 Brewers 83-79 Cubs 78-84 Reds 70-92 Pirates 68-94 This Central prediction sounds pretty close to me. I would put the Brewers closer to .500 though, probably right at it, 81-81. Cubs look about right. Cards look about right too, maybe a tick up, one or two more wins.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 21, 2023 10:44:03 GMT -5
I've explained this numerous times.... pitching, especially bullpen guys, are the most volatile players in baseball. Can have a 0.95 ERA one season and then 5.49 ERA the next. I like the Cubs pitching. I think it's top 10, but because it's so young I need to see it perform again. For me, winning in baseball, is all about offense. Mostly because pitchers don't stretch 7-8-9 inning that much anymore. You gotta score runs. So yes, for me, the success of the Cubs going forward hinges on offensive production. That is a fair point & one that is most likely shared by many, but wouldn't you agree that even though offense is the main driver of wins in your opinion that if you have a pitching staff that averages giving up 3-1/2 runs a game you will win more games than with a staff that averages 5 per game no matter how good your offense is? If it were mostly an offense driven game then the Cardinals should have kicked the crap out of everyone last year with the MVP in Goldy, Arenado who came in 3rd. & Edman who put up a 6.4 bWAR as well (22 bWAR between the 3) but as it turned out they won the exact same amount of playoff games as the Cubs did last year.. I remember very well because I enjoyed it too much to consider myself a good person. I'm working on it.. I'm not completely ignoring pitching. It needs to be good and it was good enough last year to win 74 games. That being said, the runs giving up can take a hit in 2023 and the Cubs can still win more games than last year if the offensive is much improved, which based on all the positional player signings the Cubs are banking on. The Phillies had the 14th starter ERA in the MLB and gave up almost 4 runs a game n the playoffs and still made it to the WS partly because they scored 25 more runs in the playoffs than any other playoff team. This is why I'm bigger on offense versus pitching... still need pitching. As for the Cardinals, I really do not want to go there. They've been to the playoffs 16 times since 2000, that's 16 of 23 seasons including the last 4 season. Cubs 8/23... gotta be better.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 21, 2023 10:58:33 GMT -5
That is a fair point & one that is most likely shared by many, but wouldn't you agree that even though offense is the main driver of wins in your opinion that if you have a pitching staff that averages giving up 3-1/2 runs a game you will win more games than with a staff that averages 5 per game no matter how good your offense is? If it were mostly an offense driven game then the Cardinals should have kicked the crap out of everyone last year with the MVP in Goldy, Arenado who came in 3rd. & Edman who put up a 6.4 bWAR as well (22 bWAR between the 3) but as it turned out they won the exact same amount of playoff games as the Cubs did last year.. I remember very well because I enjoyed it too much to consider myself a good person. I'm working on it.. I'm not completely ignoring pitching. It needs to be good and it was good enough last year to win 74 games. That being said, the runs giving up can take a hit in 2023 and the Cubs can still win more games than last year if the offensive is much improved, which based on all the positional player signings the Cubs are banking on. The Phillies had the 14th starter ERA in the MLB and gave up almost 4 runs a game n the playoffs and still made it to the WS partly because they scored 25 more runs in the playoffs than any other playoff team. This is why I'm bigger on offense versus pitching... still need pitching. As for the Cardinals, I really do not want to go there. They've been to the playoffs 16 times since 2000, that's 16 of 23 seasons including the last 4 season. Cubs 8/23... gotta be better. Pitching should be as good or better than last season and the defense should be WAY better which will also help make the pitching better. Offense should be better as well with a few wildcards that could possibly make it a lot better. Regarding STL , kind of funny when the Cubs were just making the wild card and getting quickly bumped it was not really considered a failure and not a good season by you , but you mention STL getting in 4 seasobs in a a row , which I'm not saying is not good , but they are 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games and got swept out of 3 of those 4 playoffs and going back further to the last 2 appearanced prior to the 4 , they are 3-19 . So to sum it up , the last 4 seasons that have had the Cardinals in the playoffs, they've won ONE more playoff game than the Cubs have the last 4 seasons.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 21, 2023 11:08:23 GMT -5
I'm not completely ignoring pitching. It needs to be good and it was good enough last year to win 74 games. That being said, the runs giving up can take a hit in 2023 and the Cubs can still win more games than last year if the offensive is much improved, which based on all the positional player signings the Cubs are banking on. The Phillies had the 14th starter ERA in the MLB and gave up almost 4 runs a game n the playoffs and still made it to the WS partly because they scored 25 more runs in the playoffs than any other playoff team. This is why I'm bigger on offense versus pitching... still need pitching. As for the Cardinals, I really do not want to go there. They've been to the playoffs 16 times since 2000, that's 16 of 23 seasons including the last 4 season. Cubs 8/23... gotta be better. Pitching should be as good or better than last season and the defense should be WAY better which will also help make the pitching better. Offense should be better as well with a few wildcards that could possibly make it a lot better. Regarding STL , kind of funny when the Cubs were just making the wild card and getting quickly bumped it was not really considered a failure and not a good season by you , but you mention STL getting in 4 seasobs in a a row , which I'm not saying is not good , but they are 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games and got swept out of 3 of those 4 playoffs and going back further to the last 2 appearanced prior to the 4 , they are 3-19 . So to sum it up , the last 4 seasons that have had the Cardinals in the playoffs, they've won ONE more playoff game than the Cubs have the last 4 seasons. 2 of those last 4 opponents made it to the World Series one of them winning it, the Nationals. You can cherry pick the wins and losses all you want, they're at least giving themselves a chance to win. Cardinals haven't finished under .500 since 2007. That's cool though, they'll probably be in the postseason again in 2023 while the Cubs continue to bank on this rebuild.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 21, 2023 11:21:00 GMT -5
Pitching should be as good or better than last season and the defense should be WAY better which will also help make the pitching better. Offense should be better as well with a few wildcards that could possibly make it a lot better. Regarding STL , kind of funny when the Cubs were just making the wild card and getting quickly bumped it was not really considered a failure and not a good season by you , but you mention STL getting in 4 seasobs in a a row , which I'm not saying is not good , but they are 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games and got swept out of 3 of those 4 playoffs and going back further to the last 2 appearanced prior to the 4 , they are 3-19 . So to sum it up , the last 4 seasons that have had the Cardinals in the playoffs, they've won ONE more playoff game than the Cubs have the last 4 seasons. 2 of those last 4 opponents made it to the World Series one of them winning it, the Nationals. You can cherry pick the wins and losses all you want, they're at least giving themselves a chance to win. Cardinals haven't finished under .500 since 2007. That's cool though, they'll probably be in the postseason again in 2023 while the Cubs continue to bank on this rebuild. Lol, cherry pick ? Nothing cherry picked, they are 1-9 any way you look at it . But you keep saying the Cubs run pretty much ended in 2016 , yet they made the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons after , so why the double edged sword oF that not being sustained success, but this 4 year STL run being success ? If it counts one way , why not the other ?
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 21, 2023 11:50:42 GMT -5
2 of those last 4 opponents made it to the World Series one of them winning it, the Nationals. You can cherry pick the wins and losses all you want, they're at least giving themselves a chance to win. Cardinals haven't finished under .500 since 2007. That's cool though, they'll probably be in the postseason again in 2023 while the Cubs continue to bank on this rebuild. Lol, cherry pick ? Nothing cherry picked, they are 1-9 any way you look at it . But you keep saying the Cubs run pretty much ended in 2016 , yet they made the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons after , so why the double edged sword oF that not being sustained success, but this 4 year STL run being success ? If it counts one way , why not the other ? Because the Cubs were not building on their success. The Cardinals have continued to add to get better. If you disagree then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather be in the playoffs versus another rebuild, but to each his own.
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Post by fine09 on Feb 21, 2023 12:29:53 GMT -5
Lol, cherry pick ? Nothing cherry picked, they are 1-9 any way you look at it . But you keep saying the Cubs run pretty much ended in 2016 , yet they made the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons after , so why the double edged sword oF that not being sustained success, but this 4 year STL run being success ? If it counts one way , why not the other ? Because the Cubs were not building on their success. The Cardinals have continued to add to get better. If you disagree then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather be in the playoffs versus another rebuild, but to each his own. Just being in the playoffs just isn't good enough anymore nor should it be for us after what took place in 2016. Both teams should vie for the playoffs every year but if they can't even win a single playoff game in 2022 with THAT offense then the Cardinals would be considered "trending down" whereas the Cubs are very much "trending up" & I'll take that.
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Post by Returnofstevefitz on Feb 21, 2023 12:42:36 GMT -5
Because the Cubs were not building on their success. The Cardinals have continued to add to get better. If you disagree then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather be in the playoffs versus another rebuild, but to each his own. Just being in the playoffs just isn't good enough anymore nor should it be for us after what took place in 2016. Both teams should vie for the playoffs every year but if they can't even win a single playoff game in 2022 with THAT offense then the Cardinals would be considered "trending down" whereas the Cubs are very much "trending up" & I'll take that. That's fine, just being in the playoffs is not good enough, but lets not sit here and act like some super team is winning every year. There have been 8 different teams win the championship the last 10 years. Only the Red Sox and Astros winning 2 times. Getting there annually increases your chances. "but if they can't even win a single playoff game in 2022 with THAT offense then the Cardinals would be considered "trending down" whereas the Cubs are very much "trending up" & I'll take that." Oh wow! I'm pretty sure the Cardinals are not trending down LOL EDIT: Just to be clear, the Phillies were the best offensive team in the NL down the stretch and in the playoffs. As glorious as the Cardinals sweep was, in game 1 they were winning 2-0 in the 9th inning when the Phillies offense crushed their pitching for 6 runs, but ok.
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Post by batman66 on Feb 21, 2023 13:11:51 GMT -5
Lol, cherry pick ? Nothing cherry picked, they are 1-9 any way you look at it . But you keep saying the Cubs run pretty much ended in 2016 , yet they made the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons after , so why the double edged sword oF that not being sustained success, but this 4 year STL run being success ? If it counts one way , why not the other ? Because the Cubs were not building on their success. The Cardinals have continued to add to get better. If you disagree then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather be in the playoffs versus another rebuild, but to each his own. I'd rather be in the playoffs too . My point to you was the Cubs were there 3 of 4 years after 2016 and you act like 2016 was the end of their run and it was not and you look down on it because they did not win again. Yet STL being there 4 in a row gets your accolades , even though they've won ONE more playoff game than the Cubs have the last 4 years and the Cubs have won a WS more recently than they have..
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Post by kfidd on Feb 21, 2023 13:26:22 GMT -5
That's fine, just being in the playoffs is not good enough, but lets not sit here and act like some super team is winning every year. There have been 8 different teams win the championship the last 10 years. Only the Red Sox and Astros winning 2 times. Getting there annually increases your chances. I agree with you on this. I think as fans the ultimate thing we can ask for is perennial playoff baseball. If the Cubs are making the playoffs year in and year out, they are giving themselves a chance and I get to dream about a championship and obsess over team/player performance a little while longer every year. I don’t necessarily buy into the idea of building a super team that is World Series bound. The regular season is a grueling marathon where anything and everything can happen. I think building a team that can play at a high level long enough to survive that marathon and earn their ticket into October is a great strategy, and the Cardinals have done that. There also does have to come a point though as fans where you start to point the finger. Playoff baseball is exciting, but if after four straight playoff appearances you haven’t won a single game in the NLCS, you start thinking about change. While I applaud the Cardinals organization on some levels, they don’t do something that you’ve been hyper critical of the Cubs for, and that’s spending big in free agency to improve the team. They find ways to improve in other areas, like always squeezing the most out of their prospects and winning some ridiculously lopsided trades like the Arenado one, but they’ve had opportunities to push themselves over the top in free agency and they haven’t. AAV payroll added by the Cardinals in free agency these last three off seasons (all following poor playoff results): 2020: 17m 2021: 22.2m 2022: 17.5m Long story short, my dream is the Cubs are making the playoffs every year. My hope is that starting this season they can begin flirting with that idea, and a relatively weak division might allow for that. But it’s important to keep getting better every year, and I think the Cardinals have rested on their laurels of being in a bad division a little too long and not made the moves necessary to improve their recent playoff results.
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Post by fine09 on Feb 21, 2023 14:11:57 GMT -5
That's fine, just being in the playoffs is not good enough, but lets not sit here and act like some super team is winning every year. There have been 8 different teams win the championship the last 10 years. Only the Red Sox and Astros winning 2 times. Getting there annually increases your chances. I agree with you on this. I think as fans the ultimate thing we can ask for is perennial playoff baseball. If the Cubs are making the playoffs year in and year out, they are giving themselves a chance and I get to dream about a championship and obsess over team/player performance a little while longer every year. I don’t necessarily buy into the idea of building a super team that is World Series bound. The regular season is a grueling marathon where anything and everything can happen. I think building a team that can play at a high level long enough to survive that marathon and earn their ticket into October is a great strategy, and the Cardinals have done that. There also does have to come a point though as fans where you start to point the finger. Playoff baseball is exciting, but if after four straight playoff appearances you haven’t won a single game in the NLCS, you start thinking about change. While I applaud the Cardinals organization on some levels, they don’t do something that you’ve been hyper critical of the Cubs for, and that’s spending big in free agency to improve the team. They find ways to improve in other areas, like always squeezing the most out of their prospects and winning some ridiculously lopsided trades like the Arenado one, but they’ve had opportunities to push themselves over the top in free agency and they haven’t. AAV payroll added by the Cardinals in free agency these last three off seasons (all following poor playoff results): 2020: 17m 2021: 22.2m 2022: 17.5m Long story short, my dream is the Cubs are making the playoffs every year. My hope is that starting this season they can begin flirting with that idea, and a relatively weak division might allow for that. But it’s important to keep getting better every year, and I think the Cardinals have rested on their laurels of being in a bad division a little too long and not made the moves necessary to improve their recent playoff results. Exactly.. Thank you. And even great teams may need to get deep into the playoffs numerous times because there are many very good teams out there every year that can get hot & even if you are better overall you just might not be that series so get there a lot..
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