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Post by thisbuds4u on Jun 23, 2021 15:34:20 GMT -5
I am with you that the Cubs are not selling if in first place or in reach of it, it is a horrific look around the league and like you said the Cubs are not going to get a franchise altering return for some of the players they have, so mind as well buy and see what happens. Also there is already rumored reports that The Rickets are doing better than expected and will let Hoyer make moves to improve the team at the deadline that he seems fit. While Hoyer will not be able to a big overhaul to the rotation but getting it at least middle of the road is a realistic goal and that is all he needs to do as long the bullpen keeps doing what it is doing. So add quality starter to the rotation and then beef up the offense with guys like Starling Marte and even Asrubal Cabrera (IF Duffy cannot return) and all the sudden your offense goes from middle of the road to above average and will not cost a top prospect to make it happen. All sudden the Cubs have a average rotation, Elite bullpen with a above average offense that can score is different ways which should help get them in the postseason and go from there. So if the Cubs have the lead after 5 innings then you hand it over to the bullpen for the win. This formula worked for the Giants, Royals and Brewers in the past and what the Cubs will have to do to contend this year. I don't think the Cubs are far off from being a serious threat this year. Marte is one guy I wish the front office would focus on. I think he could be the spark that could ignite this team, he does everything this lineup lacks. He hits well, and not just for power, can run extremely well and doesn't strike out a ton. I know he's stated he wants to sign with Miami long term, but all signs say no talks have taken place. If they could pry him away that could change the offense completely with just one guy. I would prefer the Cubs trying to acquire Ketel Marte from Arizona. He would be that top of the order guy the Cubs have been missing since Fowler left. And he has 3 years remaining in his contract at a very reasonable price.
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Post by TheChico on Jun 23, 2021 15:46:16 GMT -5
I am with you that the Cubs are not selling if in first place or in reach of it, it is a horrific look around the league and like you said the Cubs are not going to get a franchise altering return for some of the players they have, so mind as well buy and see what happens. Also there is already rumored reports that The Rickets are doing better than expected and will let Hoyer make moves to improve the team at the deadline that he seems fit. While Hoyer will not be able to a big overhaul to the rotation but getting it at least middle of the road is a realistic goal and that is all he needs to do as long the bullpen keeps doing what it is doing. So add quality starter to the rotation and then beef up the offense with guys like Starling Marte and even Asrubal Cabrera (IF Duffy cannot return) and all the sudden your offense goes from middle of the road to above average and will not cost a top prospect to make it happen. All sudden the Cubs have a average rotation, Elite bullpen with a above average offense that can score is different ways which should help get them in the postseason and go from there. So if the Cubs have the lead after 5 innings then you hand it over to the bullpen for the win. This formula worked for the Giants, Royals and Brewers in the past and what the Cubs will have to do to contend this year. I don't think the Cubs are far off from being a serious threat this year. Marte is one guy I wish the front office would focus on. I think he could be the spark that could ignite this team, he does everything this lineup lacks. He hits well, and not just for power, can run extremely well and doesn't strike out a ton. I know he's stated he wants to sign with Miami long term, but all signs say no talks have taken place. If they could pry him away that could change the offense completely with just one guy. Should be cheap to get too, he can hit HR's sometimes but he does everything else the Cubs offense currently lacks. Marte does make a ton of sense of the Cubs.
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Post by TheChico on Jun 23, 2021 15:47:59 GMT -5
Marte is one guy I wish the front office would focus on. I think he could be the spark that could ignite this team, he does everything this lineup lacks. He hits well, and not just for power, can run extremely well and doesn't strike out a ton. I know he's stated he wants to sign with Miami long term, but all signs say no talks have taken place. If they could pry him away that could change the offense completely with just one guy. I would prefer the Cubs trying to acquire Ketel Marte from Arizona. He would be that top of the order guy the Cubs have been missing since Fowler left. And he has 3 years remaining in his contract at a very reasonable price. I would love that guy BUT will cost a fortune in prospect, his contract is cheap, still under team control for a couple more years. Starling Marte is a better target because he will cost much much less but Ketel Marte is the better of the two no doubt.
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Post by happtobehere on Jun 24, 2021 7:55:05 GMT -5
Marte is one guy I wish the front office would focus on. I think he could be the spark that could ignite this team, he does everything this lineup lacks. He hits well, and not just for power, can run extremely well and doesn't strike out a ton. I know he's stated he wants to sign with Miami long term, but all signs say no talks have taken place. If they could pry him away that could change the offense completely with just one guy. I would prefer the Cubs trying to acquire Ketel Marte from Arizona. He would be that top of the order guy the Cubs have been missing since Fowler left. And he has 3 years remaining in his contract at a very reasonable price. Certainly, most people would love to have Marte but he would cost a ton in prospects and the Cubs really cannot afford that.
That is why I've mentioned Brujan... it makes sense for both sides.
The Rays have an abundance of middle infield prospects (Walls (currently in the majors), Franco (recently called up) Brujan (near MLB call up), Jones and Edwards all in their top 10).
Brujan is rated 37 over all, Marquez 45. Rays always target pitching, the Cubs need a replacement (possibly) for Baez next season. Brujan typically does not hit for power but has posted solid on base numbers with blazing speed, two things the Cubs could really use. I'd shoot for a one for one or a two for two swap.
I'm really not familar enough with other teams prospects and depth to find another prospect for prospect swap but this makes a lot of sense for both sides. I'm also not a huge believer in Marquez as another other than a reliever. Adding Brujan would allow the Cubs to shift either him or Hoerner to CF and play the other at second while sending down Happ or possibly using Happ as a change of scenery candidate in a potential deal to improve the rotation. Happ for Gray? May be enough upside and control left with Happ to get the Rockies interested.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 0:35:26 GMT -5
I think we will wind up selling.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Jun 28, 2021 3:58:44 GMT -5
I think we will wind up selling. I don't see much trade value in many of the Cub players except some bullpen arms. Every GM in baseball has witnessed the struggles they have had the last 3-4 years especially in the playoffs. The Cubs might try to sell but I'm not sure how many teams would be interested.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 28, 2021 9:49:27 GMT -5
Actually, I 100% believe in the Cubs. I believe that if they make the playoffs with this roster they will do exactly the same as they did the past 2 years in a row which is a very early exit in the playoffs because they just don't have the firepower in the rotation & offense to get past the first round - & if by some oddity they did get past the wild card round they would surely have the same issues with the next round. Sadly that seems very much to be a "best case scenario" for us.. Understand that our #1 Comp pick if we were to let KB play out the season instead of trading him would net us somewhere in the #40th to 45th pick in this years draft - & he would "probably" slot in somewhere in our top 10 to top 15 player on the Cubs - which equates to somewhere around a top 500 to 700 MiLB talent. Now.. If we trade KB (if he gets hot again), we would be looking at a top 30 to 50 player in all MiLB which is a HUGE upgrade over a #500 to 700 player that would do very well to ever crack the roster. You can plug in a package of Kimbrel (one of the best closers with 1-1/2 years of control) along with either Javy, Rizzo, Davies, Tepera, etc. & get back another top 30 to 50 in all of MiLB as well because our next Comp pick should be in the top 800 to 1,100 player which would probably not slot in to the Cubs top 30 MiLB list. So in a nutshell by dealing the guys that we are certain to lose at the end of the year for "peanuts", we flip them & get 50 times the return we would if we kept them AND it actually gives the players that we traded a bonus because there is no compensation attached to them so signing deals would be much easier & likely. As far as the Cubs having the money to spend in free agency, this coming Winter will be a HIUGE year for Cubs spending but if we did as I say & flip the guys for very high-end prospects maybe they only have to sign 3 upper free agents this Winter instead of 5 or 6 if just let them walk for damn near no return. That would in turn allow the Cubs to "buy" better rated or more expensive free agents because they may very well have 2 or 3 youngsters obtained in the trades I am proposing which will also leave a good chunk of change to spend on next years deadline. Honestly you have no idea if "The days of top 100 prospects being dealt for rental pieces are pretty much over" because there are numerous teams that are fighting & clawing to get to the postseason & some of them almost never get there so it is impossible to know just how bad they want it. Take the Padres for example. If them (or a team like them) could bring in a good innings eating starting pitcher like Davies that would keep them in the games, an All star 3rd. baseman/outfielder like KB that when is hot is an MVP candidate & one of the best closers in all of baseball because theirs is at best decent & push them over the top they just might win it all.. I understand completely your reasoning for wanting to swap prospects & also to trade for a new starting pitcher to help us this year because taking Division titles for granted is NOT a good idea or to be taken lightly. Then again if I have to give away "A CHANCE" at winning our weak division in order to end up with the best minors system in all of baseball AND still go after re-signing Rizzo & possibly KB in the off season that would hardly be considered a re-build wouldn't you agree? I do like our chances with Nico & Duffy in there (If they both continue to over-perform) but where exactly is Duffy going to play every game & who sits if he does?? Duffy? Third base. I'll take Bryant in RF and sit Heyward unless a certain match up favors Heyward and/or we need to upgrade the outfield defense.
Show me the last top prospect that was dealt mid-season for a guy with >2 years of control... I'll wait. A team certainly COULD trade a top prospect but recent history suggest otherwise. Jazz Chisholm was dealt recently but he was a prospect for prospect (more less) deal. I'm not up to date with every single top 100 prospect so maybe I missed a deal but I haven't seen any. You barely see a top 100 deal as it related to Blake Snell or Mike Clevenger.
So lets look at the last time a MVP candidate was dealt to a team that was desperate for a World Series and look at the "haul"... The last, off the top of my head, was Manny Machado to the Dodgers. Machado at the time was absolutely raking in Baltimore .315 .387 .575 .963 162OPS+. The Dodgers had not won a World Series since the late 80's and were pretty damn desperate. They dealt Diaz, the number 52 prospect at the time (and infamous bust) and a bunch of Wild Cards. Three additional guys that landed in the O's top 30.
That is a comparable trade for an MVP caliber player, is it better than a compensation pick? Sure, I'll give you that but was it franchise altering? Did it speed up Baltimore's rebuild?
More importantly, is that return WORTH GIVING UP A PLAYOFF RUN? Think about what even a first round sweep would mean to the Cubs financially and what that would mean for re-signing or signing free agents.
We (the Cubs) are at 100% capacity and are a first place team.. what does a playoff run mean financially? To the Marquee network? To the money coming in at the gate and concessions? Merchandise, advertising, etc.?
Sorry, on a golf vacation with other hacks/drunks & was unavailable & incoherent most of the time.. That said, the Machado comp is a pretty good one so sign me up for a top 50 prospect & 3 more youngsters that slot into out top 15 to 30 as opposed to (1) kid that hits in the top 700 every single time. And let's do the same thing with Kimbrel, Rizzo & Javy & triple the return. Surely everyone is seeing that we have maybe a 3% chance at moving beyond the 1st. round of the playoffs - assuming that we make it at all. I am looking at the bigger picture for sure & I don't feel good about giving up mid season when this close to 1st. but the future is much more important that letting our core walk with absolutely nothing to show from them for the next 4 to 6 years - if ever. That being said, I don't know that they will do this & may go the opposite direction & deplete the farm system even more by acquiring a guy or two for a run & if that's what happens I will be cheering as loud as anyone when they play.
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Post by irishcubfan on Jun 28, 2021 11:06:31 GMT -5
I love Ketel Marte, if the DBacks trade him, I think other teams will give up better prospects than what the Cubs can for him.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 28, 2021 12:23:28 GMT -5
I love Ketel Marte, if the DBacks trade him, I think other teams will give up better prospects than what the Cubs can for him. Boy.. If they were to trade him they would want a ton for his potential upside on a cheap deal through 2024 if the teams wants him. They are going to clean house but I don't know if he will be one for sale.
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Post by irishcubfan on Jun 28, 2021 14:20:05 GMT -5
I love Ketel Marte, if the DBacks trade him, I think other teams will give up better prospects than what the Cubs can for him. Boy.. If they were to trade him they would want a ton for his potential upside on a cheap deal through 2024 if the teams wants him. They are going to clean house but I don't know if he will be one for sale. Very unlikely that he would be dealt. Escobar is as good as gone however.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 28, 2021 15:39:54 GMT -5
Boy.. If they were to trade him they would want a ton for his potential upside on a cheap deal through 2024 if the teams wants him. They are going to clean house but I don't know if he will be one for sale. Very unlikely that he would be dealt. Escobar is as good as gone however. That's what I had thought earlier but I read an article today somewhere that they were seriously considering trading him..
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Post by thisbuds4u on Jun 28, 2021 16:34:49 GMT -5
Very unlikely that he would be dealt. Escobar is as good as gone however. That's what I had thought earlier but I read an article today somewhere that they were seriously considering trading him.. The rumor is the White Sox are trying to make a deal for Escobar.
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Post by nukeslide on Jun 28, 2021 18:28:20 GMT -5
Javy, Rizzo and Bryant all need to go to get assets for the next championship team. As Jed himself said this team doesn't have the bones of a champion.
Now is the time. Jed (and I) are secretly loving that there is now some distance between the Brewers and Cubs. Probably be 4 games after this series, enough to justify the moves.
Here is the kicker, you have got to move multiple pieces to one team in order to get a difference maker. Name your price when you move Javy, Rizzo and Bryant to the White Sox for example, yes the White Sox. They have holes in left, second and possibly first/DH. Imagine how good that team would be with KB in left, Javy at 2nd and Rizzo sharing 1b/DH duties with Abreau.
Name your price for a difference-maker instead of moving all three separately and getting lottery tickets or little pieces.
Kimbrel and Davies to another team for the lottery tickets.
You're only kidding yourself if you think this team is good enough to win as is or even with another starting pitcher, it's just not enough.
The 2016 team was so so so much more talented and they barely got through all their series', your only kidding yourself if you think this team has a real shot.
Benefits far outweigh the risk of giving up on this season, build the base for the next one.
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Post by threeandone on Jun 28, 2021 19:11:07 GMT -5
Javy, Rizzo and Bryant all need to go to get assets for the next championship team. As Jed himself said this team doesn't have the bones of a champion. Now is the time. Jed (and I) are secretly loving that there is now some distance between the Brewers and Cubs. Probably be 4 games after this series, enough to justify the moves. Here is the kicker, you got to move multiple pieces to one team in order to get a difference maker. Name your price when you move Javy, Rizzo and Bryant to the White Sox for example, yes the White Sox. They have holes in left second and possibly first/DH. Name your price for a difference-maker instead of moving all three separately and getting lottery tickets or little pieces. Kimbrel and Davies to another team for the lottery tickets. you're only kidding yourself if you think this team is good enough to win or even with another starting pitcher oh, it's just not enough. The 2016 team was so so so much more talented and they barely got through all their series', you only kidding yourself if you think this team has a real shot. Benefits far outweigh the risk of giving up on this season, build the base for the next one. Interesting proposition, but very much unlikely. GM's aren't generally that creative. I am also ready to move on from this core. This is some boring offense that they have been putting up for awhile now, not just this year. Like last night, there are so many games where you just know they aren't going to muster up any kind of offense. I had initially thought to keep Rizzo because of the franchise face thing and I understand if they do, but his back will continue to be an issue. Hate to lose such a likable guy, but it is a business and all about winning. That said, it won't break my heart if they resign him either and I believe he will be the less costly option. Javy is exciting on defense and on the bases, but also makes mistakes on both. That not knowing how many outs there were in the game last week was very telling to me and I (as many others) have just seen enough of his lunging outside to strike out season after season. Mr. "I don't give a shit" KB has come back to life this season, but is now cooling off. With his price tag (and Javy's too), it is all the more reason to move on. I also think the odds of signing either KB or Javy is not high enough to take the chance of letting them walk and getting nothing. Will have to trust the front office to hopefully get a decent offer somewhere and make the right move, whenever that may be. I do not envy them the task. It is going to be hard to get the right deals and even harder to gamble on everything coming together this year and then possibly watch all of them walk next year. All that said, it is really a tough call to break it up now with a shot at the division yet. This next week will tell a lot. If it was the cardinals in first, i would still be gunning for them to go for it, but if the Brewers take out the cardinals it would make it easier.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 23:47:46 GMT -5
I say sell Rizz, the Prof, KB, Javy, Willy, & Davies, & Kimbrel. Blow it up.
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Post by thisbuds4u on Jun 29, 2021 5:11:16 GMT -5
I still believe the Cubs need to hire a GM. They need someone with a different perspective.
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Post by lajoiesghost on Jun 29, 2021 8:14:54 GMT -5
I still believe the Cubs need to hire a GM. They need someone with a different perspective. While Jed and Theo are cut from the same cloth, I would like to see what Jed can do with a bit of time. One never knows what they agreed on and what they didn't, and different directions Jed might have taken the team had he been in charge. One year when the Cubs are resetting the tax isn't a measuring stick.
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Post by fine09 on Jun 29, 2021 9:00:23 GMT -5
I still believe the Cubs need to hire a GM. They need someone with a different perspective. While Jed and Theo are cut from the same cloth, I would like to see what Jed can do with a bit of time. One never knows what they agreed on and what they didn't, and different directions Jed might have taken the team had he been in charge. One year when the Cubs are resetting the tax isn't a measuring stick. 100% correct..
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Post by batman66 on Jun 29, 2021 10:13:59 GMT -5
While Jed and Theo are cut from the same cloth, I would like to see what Jed can do with a bit of time. One never knows what they agreed on and what they didn't, and different directions Jed might have taken the team had he been in charge. One year when the Cubs are resetting the tax isn't a measuring stick. 100% correct.. Well his first major decision on his own was to non tender Schwarber who hit his 15th home run this month and has 24 on the season so I'm not too excited about what may be ahead.
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Post by Cubtastic on Jun 29, 2021 12:08:38 GMT -5
Well his first major decision on his own was to non tender Schwarber who hit his 15th home run this month and has 24 on the season so I'm not too excited about what may be ahead. Of course I have no idea what's in Schwarbers head but maybe a if he was still with the Cubs he would not be having the kind of year he is now, maybe he needed to get away put on a new uniform and get away from the terrible habits the Cubs hitters have, again I don't know that for sure but it certainly is a thought. I think other guys would benefit from this as well.
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